MJ ingestion/inhalation whether past, present or continuous can cause incessant bickering/arguing amongst adults to no ends.

Cue Monty Python:

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Gordner

Yes. There are significantly more. There were 8 the prior year when it was first legalized. Of those 13, seven were admitted to the ICU and 2 required a breathing tube.

I don't make the calls on whether or not the deaths were pot related, the call was made by the medical examiner...but according to the news reports the man killed his wife after consuming infused candy. He started raving about the end of the world and shot his wife.

The student drove down with friends from a college in Wyoming to sample the legal drugs in Colorado. After consuming the drug, he began acting wildly and jumped from the balcony. These to not seem inconsistent behaviors according to the studies discussed earlier.

Why the personal attack? Have I not been polite in my argument...and why attribute arguments to me that I have not made? Are those easier to argue than those I do make?

The Canadian Medical Association tested IQ, over time, regarding marijuana use. A controlled experiment. By medical professionals.
Results: a 5 point INCREASE when smoking 5 or less joints per week.

Yeah well the risk of IQ leakage never prevented me from reading some of these threads and just about anything in PARF, irregardless.

I just re read my post Fint and I do not read it as a personal attack, I am sorry if you feel it is. I think a nation ruled by someone that thinks as you have posted here would be a very boring place, you seem to want the government involved in every aspect of your choices.
You would criminilize tobacco and alcohol if you were able, that statement you have made here. Seems to me there would be no vices in Fintland, and that to me is a pretty boring place.
Again, not meant to be a personal attack, just an observation, and an anecdotal one at that so worth nothing lol....

Study showed increases in IQ over time for all except heavy users which showed losses...as predicted.

While you may well have a few IQ points to spare, that is woefully not the case for many others.

Just remember kids, this stuff will give you brain damage.

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Starting your argument with a statement like:

"People like Fint are..."

makes the argument about me, rather than the topic...it is a personal attack...albeit, in this case a mild one.

As I have posted, I do not advocate legalizing any new dangerous drug for recreation. There are already more than enough. I have not argued for legalizing or criminalizing anything else as alcohol and nicotine are already legal. I have repeatedly stated that I do not want more government involved in my affairs, but rather, less. As long as you are fine with being responsible for yourself if your use had the effects that scientist claim it could (worst case scenario) I have no problem with you using MJ, crack or toilet bowl cleaner to get high (as long as you are an adult). That would entail drug testing for auto, health and life insurance (so you can pay for the increased risk)...testing for means based social welfare, employment, etc. it would also mean testing your kids to ensure they were not getting into your stash. If you distribute to minors or allow access, there should be serious consequences.

According to scientific studies, long term, heavy use likely will. See, we can agree.

Fint, by your logic since Adam Lanza didn't smoke pot and he killed 20 kids, smoking MJ will prevent shooting deaths of children.

I just read the last four pages and this is how you sound. You disregard and belittle stats you disagree with, and then harp on biased studies as facts. The NIH is a government organization with a vested interest in the outcome of their study. The classification of MJ as schedule 1 was a Nixon era move that had nothing to do with true danger.

And no, I'm not playing your game of "post your source and data". All has already been posted in this thread and others that you choose to ignore or discredit (too old, not on point, not factual, biased, etc.). Here's my position - you are flat out wrong and represent the same narrow minded, fear driven position you take on any issue that doesn't reek of ultra-conservativism.

But you will pay your part of all the drug testing that this would require? And what would happen to the revenue stream generated by taxing the MJ sales, seems to me that would more than pay for your concerns. Why are you not out there right now campaigning for drug testing for auto insurance if that is a concern of yours, how does legalization change that situation? Illegal drug use can and does cause impaired driving fatalaties as well, where is your concern regarding that?
You are right, starting out that way I did identify the issue with you and that is not fair. You have just been the most vocal in this thread in the anti column, I don't intend to pick on you, more the mindset you demonstrate, and most anti legalization folk demonstrate, that reminds me a lot of a religious person defending his faith. As I read through your comments, it becomes clear your mind is made up and there is no changing it, you have almost ingrained preconceptions of what marijuana is and what it does, and I am guessing no real world experience to draw on yourself.
I would be willing to be the vast majority of those jumping in with an anti-legalization argument are much the same, loaded in internet "facts" about marijuana but berift of personal experience. Almost every one I know has smoked weed at some point, and I cannot point to one person I know that has had any serious adverse impact as a result. They all graduated school, all went onto success in life, some still smoke, most do not but there is no huge differential between the two. And none of them are on government assistance.....

Anacdotal evidence! No place for that here. Everyone move a long nothing to see here

Mreid
Old studies said smoking cigarettes were healthy...would you still cite those when larger, more detailed and more recent studies have shown they are no longer accurate/valid?

The NIH did not do the recent, peer reviewed studies that they cite. They only refer to them because they are the current state of science in that area. There is little disagreement in the scientific community regarding their validity.

BTW, the Adam Lanza remark does not make sense.

Most of the studies that were posted where I pointed out flaws were not in the study, but rather, in what the person posting in them claimed they they proved. In almost every case, the study did not even look at the topic claimed...much less prove their point.

While the category one designation is old, it turns out it is partially correct. It certainly is a dangerous drug as stated, however; there may well be some medicinal use. Those facts might well change the category, but certainly are not an argument for legalization for recreation.

Perhaps if you posted some facts about the positive effects of smoking MJ or legalization instead of your displeasure with me personally...you might be convincing. I would really like to see some real data supporting your position, but apparently the only argument is that many like to use the stuff and resent the fact that anyone might reveal that it is harmful to many. I remember the same attitude when people first vegan to realize that cigarettes were just not the healthy pastime they were led to believe.

You didn't read anything I posted did you...

Well I give up ladies and gentlemen. Unless someone finds a statastic as recent as this morning and has the exact stats Mr flint is looking for, this is going nowhere.

More sarcasm I see. Too bad your argument does not match your feigned outrage. I would be happy if anything you posted actually pertained to the topic.

In fact, I read everything you posted...and it was not only a great waste of time because they had nothing to do with your argument, but also because, unlike you...I had already read them before. You should try reading them yourself...and not just the abstract.

Yes, you would really need to post a statistic that has at least something to do with the topic. Just doing a Google search and finding an old study with the words "gateway" and "marijuana" in them really does nothing to improve your position. Obviously many things also correlate with drug usage...from crime to sexual promiscuity That does nothing to disprove the fact that folks that use marijuana are much more likely to move on to other drugs than those who do not.

As far as the currency of a study, yes...most intelligent folks would not pull up an old study and try to use it as an argument against a newer, more thorough study that disproved the previous one. Trying to prove the Earth is still flat because people once though it was flat is ludicrous. Any study regarding effects of marijuana use that is more than a year or two old should really be scrutinized as the knowledge in this area has increased significantly in the last year or so.

The more I see of pro-drug arguments here make me believe the danger to IQ and rational thinking is even greater than I thought.

I have broken up your post so that my response to each point is clear. It is all there.

Gladly, as it will save more in social welfare than it will cost.

Actually, the additional policing requirements seem to be eating up much of that revenue. Even more will end up funding the unending stream of losers that will require social welfare to feed and house them.

I think that once nonusers realize that they subsidize the risky behavior of drug users, they will require that they are removed from the risk pool or pay much more like cigarette smokers do for life insurance(this likely applies to MJ smokers now).

That is definitely a concern. Hopefully they will fins better ways to identify and stop drivers who have used MJ before driving.

On the contrary, I am making a logical, unimpassioned argument with most empirical evidence on my side. I would welcome a bit better argument to counter mine...but none has been forthcoming. All I get is a lot of emotion, but no real argument regarding how legalizing a dangerous drug would make life better in this country than leaving it illegal as now.


I have researched the current scientific opinion on the topic and the supporting scientific studies. They all indicate that we have long been mislead (or just mistaken) on the benign nature of heavy, long term marijuana use. Yes I have known folks who were long-term, heavy users and all matched the study results. I knew other "experimenters' who used more than a few times...but could not be construed as "heavy" or "moderate" users who seemed to have little long term problems (other than an inability to get a security clearance).

Once again, if you have a 150 IQ, you can probably spare 5-10 points and a bit of initiative and still do well in life as you are still smarter than most (this was exactly the case in the study posted above by Creaturecat). No one will probably even notice. I believe that to be the case of many of the bright folks I went to school with (in our gifted and talented program) who were heavy users. Of all the teens in that group, they were the only ones who did not live up to their early promise. They were neither successful in business or in relationships.

Half the nation is on "government assistance"...I suspect that many have not informed you of that status. Some of your "successful" friends that were heavy users may well be in that group.

RE: the man that shot his wife...

Seems the judge didn't exactly buy that it was the pot that made the man kill his wife.

"Defense attorneys for 48-year-old Richard Kirk suggested during a preliminary hearing that he was so impaired by the pot that he may not have intended to kill his wife.

But Judge Elizabeth Starrs said there was enough evidence for a trial on a charge of first-degree murder because Kirk showed he had the wherewithal to remember the code to a locked gun safe and press the weapon to his wife’s head nearly 13 minutes into her call with the 911 dispatcher."
"Kristine Kirk told her closest friends in the days before she died that she and her husband were fighting intensely, and she had grown afraid of him, Bisgard testified.

Their struggles involved more than $40,000 in debt and $2,500 they owed to the Internal Revenue Service, he said.

He told the judge that Kirk stood to gain from his wife’s $340,000 life insurance policy.

Kirk’s defense attorney Shanelle Kindel noted that the package of “Karma Kandy” bore no information about suggested dosages. And though Bisgard said Kirk’s THC levels were relatively low, Kindel said the effects of marijuana edibles can be felt in small amounts."

Colorado Man Claims Pot Brownies Made Him Kill His Wife « CBS Seattle

So, not exactly proof in this case that pot had anything to do with the murder.

Like all murder cases...there are often multiple sides. I will wait to see how the case turns out. Lots of folks have a little debt and some life insurance. I know that I have more of both than he did.

His wife, who knew him best seemed to think it was the MJ and not a murder plot. What about the college guy who jumped off the balcony...was that for the insurance too?


Denver Man Accused of Killing Wife after Eating Marijuana Candy Formally Charged with Murder

November 12, 2014/in Diversion, Public Health Consequences /by legaladmin


By Alan Gathright, Published: April 18, 2014 at 10:53 PM

DENVER – A Denver man who police say had eaten marijuana-infused candy before shooting and killing his wife while she was on the phone with 911 was formally charged with first-degree murder Friday, the Denver District Attorney’s Office said.

Court records say 44-year-old Kristine Kirk told a 911 operator on Monday night her husband had “taken some marijuana and possibly some prescription medication for back pain” before he started “hallucinating” and scaring her and the couple’s three young children.

On the 911 recording, 47-year-old Richard Kirk can be heard in the background talking about taking marijuana “candy” that he had purchased from a recreational marijuana shop, the documents say.

Authorities say Kirk shot his wife in the head about 12 minutes into her call with 911, although 7NEWS has determined that it took Denver police at least 16 minutes to respond to the home at 2112 S. St. Paul St., near the University of Denver.

On Thursday, Denver Police Chief Robert White ordered an investigation into how police, dispatchers and 911 operators responded to what authorities initially described as a domestic violence call.

Early in the call, Kristine Kirk told the 911 operator to “please hurry” and send officers because her husband was “totally hallucinating” and frightening their children, the document says.
She said “her husband was talking like it was the end of the world…he had asked her to get the gun and to shoot him, and she is scared of what he might do because her three children are in the house with her,” the document said.

“At one point during the call Mrs. Kirk sounds panicked and tells the 911 operator that Richard was taking the firearm out of the safe. She next related that he had the gun and she didn’t know where to go,” the document states.

Within seconds, the wife “can be heard screaming. The screaming stopped after hearing what [the detective] believes is the sound of a gunshot. The 911 phone line remained open, but Mrs. Kirk is never heard from again,” the detective writes.

Police arrived to find the wife lying on the floor of a front room of the house with a gunshot wound to her head, documents said. A black semi-automatic handgun was found on the floor in a nearby hallway.

Richard Kirk was arrested and is being held without bond at the Downtown Detention Center.

While searching the home, a detective found a receipt in the basement for $32.70 worth of marijuana products purchased at 6:40 p.m. that evening from Nutritional Elements, a marijuana shop, at 2777 S. Colorado Blvd.

The receipt identified the purchased items as “Karma Kandy Orange Ginger,” an edible marijuana candy, and “Pre 98 Bubba Kush Pre-Roll,” a pre-rolled marijuana cigarette, the document said.

A woman identifying herself as the operational manager for Nutritional Elements said the store has removed from its shelves Karma Kandy Orange Ginger and all other marijuana edible made by Gaia’s Garden, a Denver firm that calls itself “Colorado’s most premier medicinally-infused confections company.”

Karma Kandy’s packaging says the 10-gram candy contains 101 milligrams of THC, the active ingredient in marijuana. Gaia’s website says of Karma Kandy: “A single bite is enough, even for those with intense medicinal needs.”

The Nutritional Elements’ manager told 7NEWS, “This is such a horrible tragedy that has occurred…Our hearts go out to this family. It’s just really inappropriate to speculate on anything at this time. And we are working with the authorities.”