Are EVs really worse on the Enviroment?

[airwrench]

Hi - first post!

So I have an EV and have noticed that most people are curious about the same set of things, like what the range is, does it have an engine at all?, how much to run it, etc.

Every now and then, I run into somebody who I think is pretty much against EVs (or these types tend to be against anything in the news) and has to go out of their way to tell me that gas cars are cleaner because I'm getting my electricity from dirty coal power plants.

Nice, eh?

So being a former automotive industry and EV veteran, I usually try to tell them that firstly, gas cars are typically 14% - maybe 30% efficient at converting gas into motion, and that's at the engines maximum (wide open throttle ), so daily driving is lucky to be half that - say 10% - 15%. Meanwhile, a coal plant is typically 35-40% efficient at converting coal to electricity and my car/charger/transmission lines, etc. are around 85-90% efficient at converting electricity to motion. So I think from coal to driving I'm in the 30-35% efficiency range, and gas cars from gas to driving are in the 10-15% range. On top of that, I believe that gas takes more energy to get from ground to pump than coal does.

This usually enrages them and all sorts of questions fly out that show they know nothing or care nothing at this point, they just really really want it to be clear that their thinking is correct.

What makes folks like that?

By the way, I'm not a greenie beenie at all. I love my gas cars and only bought an electric to experiment with some new tech. Firm believer in the only way to learn about something is to build/live with it, etc.

I'd love to hear any comments on the topic,

Carl

[airwrench]

Crickets? no comments at all?

[Jerome74911S]

How do you factor in the high-tech batteries, from start to finish of their lives, environment wise?

[911SauCy]

why are you asking such questions as your first and second post on a porsche forum...?

Im sure theres a tesla or prius forum somewhere...

[RANDY P]

it's the smug factor that pollutes the most

rjp

[Jerome74911S]

Originally Posted by 911SauCy

why are you asking such questions as your first and second post on a porsche forum...?

Im sure theres a tesla or prius forum somewhere...

Hey, give the guy a break. This is OT after all.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by Jerome74911S

How do you factor in the high-tech batteries, from start to finish of their lives, environment wise?

Or the fact you are shredding perfectly good, serviceable cars to buy this wunderappliance with limited range and utility?

One would think a perfectly kept older vehicle, paid for and put into service over hundereds of thousands of miles, and kept out of a landfill or recycling plant would trump any perceived savings from an EV- not to mention payments, interest, pay, repeat. Why not keep a paid off vehicle?

Might make sense for an EV if you are on the eternal car payment treadmill.

rjp

[Jim Richards]

Horse & buggy is the way to go. Those new fangled automobiles are loud and dangerous. They smell, too. At least the horse droppings can be used for fertilizer. Now, get off my lawn, damn it!

[yetibone]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

Horse & buggy is the way to go. Those new fangled automobiles are loud and dangerous. They smell, too. At least the horse droppings can be used for fertilizer. Now, get off my lawn, damn it!

Hooking a horse to a wagon is horse slavery! The shame of even thinking of such demeaning atrocities as animal servitude! Humph!

[yetibone]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

it's the smug factor that pollutes the most

rjp

The new guy is a pretty good angler.

[airwrench]

BTW - I'm not an EV zealot. Just noting the responses from people that come up to me.

The batteries are a waste problem - although I'm eagerly anticipating using my old EV pack as a house solar backup solution. After that, I'm hoping there will be some type of recycling infrastructure in place - like for lead acid today. As far as manufacturing, they are just parts and cost probably not that different an amount of energy/resource to manufacture as the other parts on any vehicle. Might be almost more related to the weight of a car than it's composition.

My conclusions about the EV are that it's only good if you have other cars. We had 4 other cars when we bought it, now we have 2 others. What it is good for is taking out all those city/commuting/shopping miles. These tend to be hard on your car, as it also involves crowded parking lots, shopping cart dings, and sitting in traffic a lot. So really it's a car saver for your other cars.

I posted this discussion here because it seemed like this forum has pretty good thoughts from the various contributors.

Carl

[Jim Richards]

Quote de Jim Richards

Horse & buggy is the way to go. Those new fangled automobiles are loud and dangerous. They smell, too. At least the horse droppings can be used for fertilizer. Now, get off my lawn, damn it!

Hooking a horse to a wagon is horse slavery! The shame of even thinking of such demeaning atrocities as animal servitude! Humph!

Bleeding heart!

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by yetibone

The new guy is a pretty good angler.

Yup.

[SilberUrS6]

I'll take the bait as well.

The batteries are the problem. Getting lithium into automobile form is VERY energy-intensive. You'd have to save a BUNCH of gasoline in order to pay off that debt. Then you have a disposal/recycle issue at the end of the battery lifetime. I don't know if electric cars are actually more green yet or not. But having been a passenger in a P85D in "insane" mode, I really like the idea. That is a blisteringly fast four-door.

[yetibone]

Originally Posted by airwrench

BTW - I'm not an EV zealot. Just noting the responses from people that come up to me.

The batteries are a waste problem - although I'm eagerly anticipating using my old EV pack as a house solar backup solution. After that, I'm hoping there will be some type of recycling infrastructure in place - like for lead acid today. As far as manufacturing, they are just parts and cost probably not that different an amount of energy/resource to manufacture as the other parts on any vehicle. Might be almost more related to the weight of a car than it's composition.

My conclusions about the EV are that it's only good if you have other cars. We had 4 other cars when we bought it, now we have 2 others. What it is good for is taking out all those city/commuting/shopping miles. These tend to be hard on your car, as it also involves crowded parking lots, shopping cart dings, and sitting in traffic a lot. So really it's a car saver for your other cars.

I posted this discussion here because it seemed like this forum has pretty good thoughts from the various contributors.

Carl

Welcome to the forum, Carl.

Honestly, you'll probably find that this place is just as politically polarized and outspoken as the people you meet in person who talk junk about anything but petro-fuelers. Alternately, there's also a cadre of alt-fuel, and hyper miler folks here that would love to argue in your favor, the numerous reasons why the use of fossil fuels will kill the whole universe.

I'm on the fence. I seriously considered electrifying a small British car, or a Volkswagen a while ago, but never did. My aim would NOT have been to go all activist, and be a vested big oil petro-hater. It would have been just because. Of course, gasoline and diesel power make sense to me currently because they've been around since the dinosaurs, and there are a lot of contingencies in place to support their use on public roads, chief among which are gas stations, and Pep-Boys parts stores.

[yetibone]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

Bleeding heart!

I'ma go hug a tree now. Maybe I'll find one wif a knot hole at just the right height.



...did I type that out loud?

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by airwrench

BTW - I'm not an EV zealot. Just noting the responses from people that come up to me.

The batteries are a waste problem - although I'm eagerly anticipating using my old EV pack as a house solar backup solution. After that, I'm hoping there will be some type of recycling infrastructure in place - like for lead acid today. As far as manufacturing, they are just parts and cost probably not that different an amount of energy/resource to manufacture as the other parts on any vehicle. Might be almost more related to the weight of a car than it's composition.

My conclusions about the EV are that it's only good if you have other cars. We had 4 other cars when we bought it, now we have 2 others. What it is good for is taking out all those city/commuting/shopping miles. These tend to be hard on your car, as it also involves crowded parking lots, shopping cart dings, and sitting in traffic a lot. So really it's a car saver for your other cars.

I posted this discussion here because it seemed like this forum has pretty good thoughts from the various contributors.

Carl

I don't see how spending money, burning resources building, and acquiring yet another car (along with three others) is somewhat economical.

Finding a way to make do with less, is the theme- not having specialized niches for each auto. That's as wasteful as it gets- to have another car to substitute "wear and tear" on the others, as well as "save the atmosphere" (despite enormous production costs and financial considerations) is a false economy.

rjp

[RANDY P]

There is a certain specific need an EV can fill, but in many ways it's impractical as well due to limited range. Can you imagine living out in the country trying to own an EV? How about a long distance traveller? Or a homeowner? You gonna use the Prius to pick up Moss?

If you live in the city, don't drive much, can't afford to buy all at once and are into that "look" it makes all the sense in the world.

rjp

[Dantilla]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

Finding a way to make do with less, is the theme- not having specialized niches for each auto. That's as wasteful as it gets-

But if I'm driving only one at a time, why not have another sitting in the garage?

I need a full-size pick-up very often. but do I need an 8-foot box behind me when I just need to get my behind across town?

Why not leave the 13-mpg truck sitting there, using zero gas, producing zero emissions, and drive the sports car that happens to get great gas mileage?

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by Dantilla

But if I'm driving only one at a time, why not have another sitting in the garage?

I need a full-size pick-up very often. but do I need an 8-foot box behind me when I just need to get my behind across town?

Why not leave the 13-mpg truck sitting there, using zero gas, producing zero emissions, and drive the sports car that happens to get great gas mileage?

What about acquisition costs? If you don't have those financial options, what you do?

Single cab Toyota, 5 speed. That's what Having two cars with identical functions is a waste IMHO.

Take note people, I own 3 cars and a truck, currently. Not nagging on anyone, but let's call a spade a spade.