young engineers. bleh!

[vash]

holy crap. (disclaimer: i know i suck at spelling and grammar)

i work with heavy construction. the companies tend to hire young-brand-new-straight-out-of-college-inexpensive engineers and work them to death. i get it. i see the quality of work going downhill. it's crazy!

for example:

i review a lot of __________ plans. Lifting plans, Safety plans, etc. our contracts tell the Contractors; before performing certain parts of the project, they must submit a plan for approval. the plan must contain
(usually a table contents first)..and then lists, A. B. C. it lists what they need to provide. my current project. i am like 0/50. i have not seen a single document that is done correctly. NONE! i haven't seen a single table of contents. EVER! hell, i thought that would be the easiest damn part. i would simply copy/paste the damn specs.

this is depressing. a coworker and i kicked around the idea of opening up a consulting firm doing nothing but assembling shop drawings and work plans for construction companies. they have the info. they all do. i know this because we eventually drag it out of them.

i'm clearly not the best writer. my grammar and spelling, suspect. but i run important things thru spell checkers and i double-triple check things. things i get paid for. even my work emails i type out in WORD first to filter out my crap skills. i know that English was not my first language.

to be honest, the first fumble (from the Contractor) is ALWAYS. "Hey, Mr Contractor..before you do that, where is your plan?
"what plan? we need a plan?"

then i have to read some crap they toss together.

gotta go. i have to reject something. i wish that just once, i could start a letter with "HTF did you get out of college?"

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by vash

.... a coworker and i kicked around the idea of opening up a consulting firm doing nothing but assembling shop drawings and work plans for construction companies. they have the info. they all do. i know this because we eventually drag it out of them....

If they can't be bothered to do it correctly "for free", as in themselves, they are not likely to pay to have it done.

Too bad you can't fine them or asses an "administrative fee" for improperly filed paperwork.

Coupla few 4 figure fines'll get their attention.

Then you open up the consulting firm and charge less for preparation than the potential fine.

[vash]

Shrewd!

[Porsche-O-Phile]

"Just use this one from the other job"

God, that one irritates me more than if I get nothing. I get stuff semi-regularly with other project names, addresses, etc. still on it as a copy-paste job. They obviously don't take it seriously or intend to actually follow it.

[javadog]

I agree that there are too many young idiots out there. It's an epidemic and it's not limited to your industry.

On the other hand, I'm often asked to provide detailed plans for routine tasks. Stupid waste of time. I don't know about you but I don't hire contractors that don't know what they are doing. Simple supervision of their work is usually sufficient.

JR

[Tim Hancock]

Way too much paperwork/redtape required these days. Way too much time is spent filling out forms vs designing the actual equipment.... Very frustrating for me.

[BK911]

Is it the young engineers fault? Or the senior not checking the work?

[Icemaster]

I see this from vendor partners, regularly. When questioned, they usually respond with "that's our standard format for response."

Circular file.

[Danimal16]

When Checking water plans we used to get the same thing. EVERY district I worked at had standards that were routinely not followed. They, the piss poor engineer, intended to use our plan check for "design by plan check". Some firms were notorious for this tactic. Well, we charged fees for the plan check. If the plans were so bad, we would get through the first page, find one error on the second and send it back. We would charge them for one complete plan check. They got smart real quick.

Many young guys that are going into engineering do not have the natural curiosity that was once characteristic of the profession. In the past many came from the trades. Today these guys are more self absorbed, not all, but the majority. The arrogance has supplanted even rudimentary competence and aptitude.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by BK911

Is it the young engineers fault? Or the senior not checking the work?

Both. Many of the small to medium firms that built post WWII America have died off or purchased by large conglomerate firms. The firms are run by accountants and lawyers, not engineers. AND they are publically traded, which is the kiss of death, IMHO, to an engineering firm.

[RonDent]

Vash,

"Too bad you can't fine them or asses an "administrative fee" for improperly filed paperwork."

This sounds like a good idea. Don't you have a certain bridge that had a few cost over runs?

[Hawkeye's-911T]

"Just use this one from the other job"

That one used to really pi$$ me off. On many occasion, I had to suppress my barely controllable desire to swat the idiot with the roll of drawings I happened to have in my hands. Face it folks - English as she is "wrote & spoke" is clearly going into the toilet.

Cheers
JB

[wayner]

The problem with many projects is that the measures of success are often simply "on time-on budget."

Safety and rework often fall outside of that scope, and are accounted for out of other budgets rather than the project's budget.

There is no incentive to do the work the way this thread proposes. In fact, there are often disincentives

[vash]

Originally Posted by wayner

The problem with many projects is that the measures of success are often simply "on time-on budget."

Safety and rework often fall outside of that scope, and are accounted for out of other budgets rather than the project's budget.

There is no incentive to do the work the way this thread proposes. In fact, there are often disincentives

Exactly right.

Why read the specs when we do it for them?

[wayner]

I get paid to solve these kind of problems. But that brings up another problem:
The motivation and interest in having these problems solved is nobody's problem. Why should V.P.1 care about V.P. 2's budget or resources?

Thats the reality for many organizations.

[Miguel Antonett]

They're "TOO BUSY TEXTING"; so, not enough time for work, which - for them - is spending 8 hrs a day at the office - period.

Different generation guys... and we all have to share this world good or bad. So, "give a little and take a little" will make it better for everyone. And BTW, I'm old!

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

Way too much paperwork/redtape required these days. Way too much time is spent filling out forms vs designing the actual equipment.... Very frustrating for me.

This + a gazillion, but the paperwork addicts create their own need.

[GH85Carrera]

I suspect much of the problem is with the education or lack thereof.

Just having a degree and a certificate just means you are legal to do the work and use the title. It does not mean you really know how to do it.

At a previous job long ago before computers took over the workplace we did a lot of displays and product photographs. We needed production graphic artists and put the add in the paper.

We were flooded with applications. We weeded through the best resumes. Some of the resumes were laughable at how bad they were, and they were from college graduates with degrees in graphic arts. We ended up with a choice of a real cute 20 something female or a old experience grey hair man. We all pulled for the cutie, but in the end she was less capable of doing the work than a color blind cross eyed doofus. The experienced man was fast and great, just another ugly old dude getting the job done.

[biosurfer1]

I think the biggest problem in engineering these days is all the old fart engineers spend all their time *****ing about how "unprofessional and lazy" the new generation is, and not teaching them how to be an engineer.

In order to get your P.E. (at least in California) you need to have 2 licensed engineers sign off for you. So if a young engineer doesn't know how to do their job, who's fault is that really?

[Hawkeye's-911T]

What you say is true to a certain extent but a great percentage of the new & recent grads seem to lack some of the more important reading & writing skills necessary to succeed in the field - at least I found that to be the case, far too often for my liking.

Cheers
JB