Changing Ranger standards... sad but true.
 

Changing Army Ranger standards
Regarding the Feb. 5 online article “In a historic first, five women qualify for Army Ranger school” (CSMonitor.com): I was an Army Ranger for 13 years and an instructor at Ranger School for three years. It seems as if once every decade the Army tries to find women who can meet the standards of Ranger School – and decade after decade the standards for completion of Ranger School get lowered.

When I attended Ranger School in 1990 there were four phases (Benning, Mountains, Florida, and Desert) and it lasted 96 days with only one meal per day. Now there are only three phases (with Desert removed in the ’90s) and it lasts 61-plus days with two meals per day. I have no issue with a woman being a Ranger, but no one can tell me that the new requirements, which help facilitate a woman graduating, aren’t political. I personally saw the decline in standards, and with it the decline in significance of earning the Ranger Tab, from when I graduated in 1990 to when I was an instructor from 1998 to 2001.
Steve Holbrook
Fort Worth, Texas

It's more important to have a diverse force than a competent force.

Have to add that those Russian women in the army defending their homeland in WW2 against the Germans would be a force to reckon with.

It's that way everywhere - armed services, police, fire, border patrol, etc., etc. As a young guy I worked as a back country ranger during summers in the Sierras. I had to help with rescues and do rescue work by myself as part of the job. I once had to carry a guy piggy back who weighed 20 lbs. more than I did two miles cross country (rocky, up & down hill) to get him to a place where he could be evacuated by helicopter or stock. He had broken an ankle in a place too narrow for helicopter and pretty much too rough to get stock into. I wasn't a huge guy, but strong for my size and in really good shape. The guy was amazed. I just told him it was his tax dollars at work. That wasn't the only time I had to do something like that, & the other guys had to do it too. Now they have put some women up there to do the job. In that situation a woman would have had to call in a chopper with two more guys on it to be dropped in the area to help the guy out to where he could be evacuated. More expense and man hours because the person there wasn't up to handling the job alone. Not saying a male would be able to solve all problems by himself, but the odds were much greater.

not the same thing..
US women soldiers have found themselves in combat just because of logistic's and location..
and some current MOS's can put them out there more than others..
but passing the women's PT test is a long way from making it out of Ranger trng..
unless the Inst. have no choice...
which is probably what will happen..

Rika


Rika

wonder if the ruck loads will be made lighter

When I was a firefighter with the USFS we carried different fire hose literally for that purpose. We called it "consent decree" hose

The official word is still that no standards will be changed. Some. Will have to meet the same PT standards as men for entrance and complete the same obstacles as men...

There are new Obama style requirements for the new rangers going through training, There are now only two phases rather than three, those are 21 days in a mall fighting off other shoppers, and 21 days in a spa setting going through the rigors of personal hygiene, and only 3 catered meals a day. That should attract some healthy applicants.

Hard to believe the standards will not be different. I am in the AF Reserve (and freakin old) and my fitness test requirements are still higher than those of my daughter who is an active duty officer and half my age. I have never been through a obstacle/confidence course where women were not allowed to run around the tougher obstacles (unlike in An Officer and a Gentleman).

Citation needed.

Did you really find this serious?

"those are 21 days in a mall fighting off other shoppers, and 21 days in a spa setting going through the rigors of personal hygiene, and only 3 catered meals a day. That should attract some healthy applicants"

Personally, I am surprised the Ranger minimum fitness standards are as low as they are now...but I have to admit that I could not do the swimming part. Probably could do the rest.

It seems to me that 16-mile hike w/65lb pack in 5 hours 20 minutes and the 15-meter swim with gear would kill it for most women as the pack/gear would be the biggest challenge.

I think he's making a point about trying to blame Obama for everything by making up silly stories.

Should have been in GREEN font.

Have some retired friends working at US SOCOM dealing with this issue....not good.
What Batt were you in we prob know some of the same folks.

Do you know what kind of graduation rate they're actually expecting? I don't know anyone in RTB, but I've heard less than stellar expectations from some guys at Benning.

No idea...presently they are having trouble getting the numbers they want thru pre Ranger as they want each female candidate to have a Ranger buddy that's a female and it ain't happening.
They let some thru pre Ranger that did not meet standards so there would be enough buddies.

Crap....I'd heard they were seeing huge washout rates with the pre-course, I hadn't heard that they were pushing them through without meeting the standard.

How do we know whether the initial standards were actually correlated with in field performance? Who set them? For what type of mission? Has that mission changed?

I think that performance standards need to be benchmarked against the needs and requirements of the mission on a regular basis if you truly want to attract the best. If the performance standard is biased against certain groups, it may actually limit the efficacy of the team, especially if the needs have changed over time.

Here is an example. In Toronto, the old standards required all police officers to be a minimum of six feet in height. Why?

Things change and evolve. It doesn't mean they are worse.

IMHO, if anything, the mission is tougher today. I would suspect that they would want them as big and strong and fast and tough as possible. Sorta like the NFL. The standards ought to be whatever is the best they can get out of whatever percentage they have available. Guys are much bigger and stronger than when I was that age, the standards ought to reflect that. They should be more challenging. You don't see them making taller, faster players in the NFL wear ankle weights to even things up for the lesser players.

I am pretty sure I can pass the current minimums (except the swimming) and I am old and only about 175 lbs. A monster that lives for this stuff like HH1944 is the kind of guy we need in elite combat forces.

Well the women need to be only 65 as strong as the men since they only get paid 65 % of men's wages.

Forgive my ignorance, but of the original four training phases, why would you abandon "desert" when we've been at war in desert areas for a very, very long time now?

angela

I could be wrong, but I'd assume logistics played a fair role. The remaining 3 phases are all in a relatively tight radius of each other.

On the job training.

Cheaper.

That element was a later addition to the course....money and time caused its demise.

This will be interesting to live through vicariously. My son starts 4/19 and is 4 weeks from finishing up his 5 month 2nd lieutenant BOLC school. He's spending the 3 weeks in between continuing his physical training. He just dropped off a guy he met and has become friends for his 4th attempt. Ben said about 5% make it through on time their first time through. Not sure how accurate that is. He's in great shape, fingers crossed. He may be in the first group with women in it.

On a side note, I hired a guy to do some work for me last year that had just gotten out of the infantry. He was on the shorter side and an avid weightlifter. 265 pounds when he started ranger school a few years ago. He didn't make it through. Got so dehydrated and lost so much weight after 6 weeks they put him in the hospital. He had lost over 60 pounds. His body type and muscle mass were not a good match for the physical requirements of the school. In hindsight he said he trained all wrong. Should have been building lean muscle and endurance not weightlifting constantly.

Last I heard, graduation rate was nearly 50%....5% might be the number for selection to Regiment?

Yes, looking at the fitness test, it is more suited to a good runner/swimmer. That said, carrying a lot of gear on the long, fast hikes and the swim test will still require good upper body strength (but not mass). Of course, there is a lot more physical challenge than just the fitness test. The entire thing is physically challenging and will just wear them down over time.

I think this is correct overall including recycles. I believe what my son was referring to was graduation in the minimum time which I believe is two months. This was an answer to my naïve question, when will you graduate? because I want to attend that.

Here's what RTBn says

Ranger School Statistics

60% of all Ranger School failures occur in the first 4 days (“RAP Week”): RPA, Land Nav, Footmarch, CWSA.
30% of all Ranger School failures occur due to Personal Reasons: Admin, Lack of Motivation, Special Circumstances.
10% of all Ranger School failures occur due to Academics: Patrols, Peers, Serious Observation Report, Medical Issues.
Only 2.2% of all Ranger School failures are due to Patrols (Academic).
Only 5% of all Ranger School failures are due to Patrols, Patrols/Peers, Patrols/Peers/Spots (Academic).
50.13% Overall Graduation Rate last 6 years (FY 06-FY 11) 37.2% Ranger Graduates Recycle at least 1x Phase of Ranger School
75% of those who complete RAP week will eventually pass the Darby Phase and move on to the Mountain Phase. Darby Recycle Rate is approximately 15%.
94% of those who start the Mountain Phase will eventually pass and move on to the Florida Phase. Mountain Recycle Rate is approximately 18%.
98% of those who start Florida Phase will eventually pass and graduate Ranger School. Florida Recycle Rate is approximately 18%.

The United States Army | Fort Benning

That makes a 31.2% pass rate with no recycles

Women get the same pay and have lower standards, So in reality women make more than men in the US military.

Female butter bars in advanced land nav.......

Steve - Thank you for your service as a Ranger and an Instructor.......

Stats from the first Pre Ranger, the stats from the follow on Pre C's have been much worse.

- Class population: 122 total (male and female)
- Female population: 25
- Number of females that met all of the physical standards: 5
- Number of females allowed to continue even though they did not meet some of the physical standards: 11
- The biggest physical discriminator: Push-up event during the RPFT; 17 of the 25 females failed the push-up event
- 3 females failed the RTAC 6 mile ruck march in 90 minutes or less (Ranger school 12 mile ruck march in 3 hrs or less standard)
- 83% of the females passed the Land Navigation test

- Total female med drops: 8
- Total female LOM drops: 1
- Total female SOR drops: 1


You'll note that 11 females were 'allowed' to cont. even tho they did not meet the standard...that is a Chain of Command call and we know where the pressure for this 'success' comes from.
It appears presently that the Army will not be able to fill the 30 female slots for the first mixed class.
The females that got a go when they deserved a no go have about a snowballs chance in hell of being successful...not strong enough.

Don't have the stats on the last Pre R course but I hear only one female made the cut....looks like the 'hard chargers' were in the first course.

I don't understand why they're giving them a go when they're just going to get a no-go in the first 3 days.....unless they flex the standards there as well......it's like the Marine IOC all over again.

I believe they (powers that be not the RTB) are shooting for 30 female candidates so they'd have an even number of female Ranger buddies to pair up.

Does not look good for that number.

None of this crap meets the common sense experience test but we have to go there with this lib PC Shiite.

Endurance. Humping a ruck and the rest is mentally and physically challenging. The tough part being the mental part, that is where attitude and desire come to fruition. Slim, wirey, while not skinny-fat, guys have better success. Heavily muscled types seem to struggle more. And remember, it is not for purposes of just being able to complete the "getting there", but being able to perform the mission once you get there... worn, and tired and maybe hurt. Then of course the making it out too.

I hope and believe my son is training correctly. It's funny, when he was 12/13 playing little league, I swear it took him five minutes to run from 1st to 3rd. He just looked awkward. A few weeks ago he was 3rd in the 5 mile at IBOLC. He's strong but not over muscled. He is airborne certified. They sent him his sophomore year and has been to mountain warfare school as well. I'm just bracing myself to see him after he is done and knowing it will be most difficult for his Mom.