Gripe Session - Old Dogs Learning New Tricks

[Lapkritis]

Kicking an old dog here.



As a member of this forum for a number of years now, I've had the opportunity to engage with all sorts of characters. The spectrum of personalities is broad. Welcome to Earth; we serve all types.

Many forum members here are generous with their knowledge and experience on technical aspects - I've taken and given back from the great pool of knowledge myself. I've even lent specialized tools out to other members to help them along. It's impossible for one person to know everything which is what makes a forum so valuable in sharing collective knowledge and experience.

On the other hand, there are others who are completely closed minded and combative even as they share their experience to claim some sort of perverse authority. There is a prevalence of holier than thou which is unique to the 911 vein here relative to other forums I frequent. Enter the old dog element...and rhetorical questions.

Do old dogs know that they are old dogs? Not usually.

Are they aware of the breadth of experience that they do NOT have? No and they don't care.

Do they know what hubris is? Maybe but they refuse to self diagnose.

I believe this is a unique characteristic to the classic 911 world where a huge disparity of experience separates owners/DIY folks and professional mechanics. I believe there is a far higher proportion of rookie wrenchers here who nut swing from the vocal old wrenches. The rookie wrencher hangs on every word as gospel from the old dogs... not understanding there are other folks who have decades of experience who don't live and die by internet forum fame and who add diverse experience. This same experience/competence disparity is far less pronounced elsewhere in the automotive internet landscape for other makes and even other Porsche models. Honest question to consider for those of you who have wide ranging experience - is there a higher percentage of inexperienced/less mechanically inclined old 911 owners than for all other makes/models that are enthusiast supported? I believe the answer is a resounding "YES". And that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as everyone understands the pitfalls that come along with believing everything you read on the internet from old dogs.

Enter the master craftsman.

The master craftsman is slightly suspicious of advancements due to the familiarity with his trade and tools. What separates a master craftsman from the old dog is knowing that excellence is not a static condition. The craftsman is receptive to advancements in methodology and values the experience of others no matter the perceived tenure of the source. He seeks to continuously add to his knowledge base understanding that one is a student for a lifetime. The old dog is not a student and hasn't been for a long time - he writes off any change from his kibble as worthless. The old dog knows all and is not to be questioned, period.

We could use more master craftsman and fewer old dogs around here in my opinion. The old dogs and their minions are a nasty lot to encounter; they add some value to the community while simultaneously sucking new life out.


To the old dogs like HS and their trolls:
Diversity adds strength. This is the most valuable lesson lost on the old dog types. If the community is to thrive then it should be less inbred... there's a wave of next generation owners who are taking on ownership of these old cars. You can choose to either fight the experience and knowledge they bring or you can accept it, and value it all while understanding that you don't know what you don't know. This requires the old dog to rewrite his book often as a wash of new information floods in. If you choose to fight it, they will bypass your corner of the community and build their own. They may even cherry pick low hanging hard data from you on their way by. Your community will then wither and die. Your kibble will be a petrofied turd sitting in a dark corner of the internet years from now. Adapt, be receptive and humble and your legacy will survive.

My $.02 that I had to get off my chest. Feedback welcome.

[Lapkritis]

You two one star voters - how about you weigh in and share your feedback with the group.

Do you somehow disagree with the persistence of old dogs pissing all over this forum? Are you displeased that someone would call it like it is?

[911boost]

What are you asking for feedback on?

I am confused.

[scottmandue]

This is why I consider myself a cool cat... daddy-O

[DanielDudley]

Take the advice that fits your needs, and disregard that which you have no use for. Consider what you paid for it.

I agree that there are many ways of skinning a cat, but for some, there is only ONE way.
It need not ruin your day.

[onlycafe]

does this mean we should start to wear these?

[afterburn 549]

My compass is swinging wildly .
"Most" Everyone in the tech forums are pretty good folks -albeit i do not hang there as much as i used to.
I do not know what Happened to Superman , but he was very entertaining .
H.S. can come across abrasive at times.
Others are repeaters of mostly what they learned here and will forever be parrots......
Just can not take it all too seriously .
There is life beyond these forums-----Except for the shills. ( there is no where else for them to go, No one will have them )
Capt Ziggy and his crew .........Pretending to be something , but living on welfare .

[emcon5]

I miss Warren.

[Rapewta]

Either book... In Fifty Years, We'll All Be Chicks or President Me by Adam Carolla explain the
OP's rant a lot better.

[dan88911]

Well said Lapkritis.

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

Take the advice that fits your needs, and disregard that which you have no use for. Consider what you paid for it.

I agree that there are many ways of skinning a cat, but for some, there is only ONE way.
It need not ruin your day.

I appreciate this response. While it doesn't ruin my day, I do feel a confrontation is appropriate when there's a risk for the community. Take the case through bolt o-ring grease discussion for example. This is one of my main bones to pick with the old dog. Imagine if HS did his homework and discovered a grease that would double the tensile strength and tear resistance of the VITON rather than diminishing the original strength by half. Imagine! - it would be a tremendous discovery. Unfortunately he chose and widely distributed the diminishing strength choice (whoopsy!), and so the old dog groans when he learns there's a better grease option that doesn't diminish strength. Rather than accepting a change to his kibble and acknowledging a lesson, he dismisses and attacks the source (classy move, dog). He continues distribution in order to save face as if nothing were ever wrong, all while using Wayne's site to promote his own wares repeatedly. The continued, non-sponsored advertisement by the old dog for which he has been previously banned, is a whole other discussion.

The risk to the community is the grease he recommends to EVERYONE in that it requires the case holes to be chamfered. The data point on grease choice has a catch - you have to machine your case holes. This catch, the machining part, is excluded from the grease recommendation. All people are reading is "use HS's wonderful choice in perfect grease used on like six thousand military applications"... which is dangerous if you don't have the machining done on your case. The logic here by HS is similar to the FDA saying: "We recommend everyone drink a non-diet 2Liter bottle of Cola per day" without regard for disclaiming diabetics.

Then comes the static.



The old dog's minions are so quick to heel that they don't care about right or wrong, they just want to fight. Poor HS they exclaim, he's so helpful to everyone and deserves better. He's built a gazillion wing-a-majig thing-a-ma-bobs for like 50yrs, and he likes women and spoons just like I do, so he can't be wrong. "We're practically brothers!!" they exclaim while nodding their heads, hunting and pecking on their keyboards. Trying to talk sense into these minion folks is like PARF spreading to tech. Ignorance is bliss. These are the high in quantity, low in quality 1 star voters on this thread. They're too meek in muster to choose for themselves. They travel in a pack because they're too weak to engage on their own. Disney made a great film on these types recently which I highly recommend.

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

My compass is swinging wildly .
"Most" Everyone in the tech forums are pretty good folks -albeit i do not hang there as much as i used to.
I do not know what Happened to Superman , but he was very entertaining .
H.S. can come across abrasive at times.
Others are repeaters of mostly what they learned here and will forever be parrots......
Just can not take it all too seriously .
There is life beyond these forums-----Except for the shills. ( there is no where else for them to go, No one will have them )
Capt Ziggy and his crew .........Pretending to be something , but living on welfare .

Roger that.

Though abrasive is one thing, a belligerent ass is another. The shills and minions wear the same shoes. I once bought a Wrightwood Racing gasket set from HS, and so glad he saved me from Victor Reinz and a Pelican Parts sale. Such a sale in the last decade makes a shill for life around these parts apparently...

[afterburn 549]

I know the feeling. The same has happened to me and the flock took up the shields .
What I have learned over the years-
Make your post as technical as possible. ( I think you do )
Include all results, test etc if required.
Offer your advice and or suggestion(s) and let it go.
Let the herd part and separate .
Its no loss to you just them.
Its just the internet.
Do not loose sleep over it.

[Lapkritis]

No sleep lost of course - the flock of minions is an ever diminishing entertainment value and predictable. However, the result of continued minion/old dog cycles unchecked is a closed group with ever decreasing contributions and enthusiasm. And that's too bad in my opinion.

Some smart dudes have been through here and dropped knowledge - Grady Clay, Steve Weiner, Chris_Seven, and Hawg Ryder are just a few examples of master craftsman who have contributed. It's a pity to see their greatness diluted by an old dog who continually insists on chasing away new talent to increase only his own station. The valuable connections that might be made between these master craftsmen and the next generation of builders will be limited due to the old dog in the front yard.

[afterburn 549]

I have the exact same problem over on another forum.
The old dowg is their messiah .
Those that follow do not have 'enough" to think out side his parameters .
He could sell them mudd for rotor blade balance's !
They bow when he speaks.
It does get boring .
The bad part he misleads at their expense .( $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ )
Every new person is instructed to make the same mistakes as the last one.
Quite the religious experience going on there....
I have learned ..learned to say it once and move on.

[911boost]

Grady Little?

Yeeeah you have met him....

I just don't see why this issue is worth getting so upset about.

[gtc]

Lap,
Just post your data and move on. Anybody with the ability to think critically will be able to see it's value. If sheeple want to follow bad advice, let them... at least they won't use you as a scapegoat.
The people here that freely share info based on hard facts - chris_seven is a perfect example - are what help the community grow.
It's a lot harder to learn anything useful from the people that only give anecdotal advice... like the shop owners that maintain their proprietary knowledge in such a way that it can not be evaluated.

Give a man a fish...

[LeeH]

Pelican is a community of people from around the country and globe. It would be some sort of miracle if every person here matched your attitudes, opinions, approaches, methods, etc.

Check some of the join dates and post counts. Many of us have been playing together for a long, long time. No... we don't always agree on everything. But, that's reality. I think more intelligent people can listen to someone's opposing opinion, truly consider it, and still politely disagree.

There's certainly good info and bad. Not all bad info needs to be corrected. If, in your opinion, something is just that wrong, post your opinion, post your evidence then move along, knowing you've done your part.

[Lapkritis]

Grinning and bearing it isn't going to make the place more enjoyable or convince new people to interact in an environment rife with infallible asses. Not everyone is going to get along and bang on their bongo round the fire singing kumbaya. That fact considered, it doesn't license the asses to run wild without a take down from time to time. And the world still turns.

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by BSiple

Grady Little?

I'm from the Red Sox nation and it's a day after St. Patty's day. Mea culpa.