Used daily driver from V.A.G. family

beepbeep · 03-14-2015, 11:50 PM

Hi,

Due to pressure from my better half to get rid of my 23-year old daily driver, Audi UrS4 (and no time to do maintenance anymore, it demands 20 hours a year) I'm shopping for new used car. The reason I' asking here is because they are all full-specced gas models, and such are usually sold in US of A. Also, asking on VWvertex would just give me lots of confirmation bias.

It must be a gas engine (diesel is no go: too high tax and/or too slow), it must be a 4wd, it must be VAG-car (I don't want a Volvo and I'm got quite good at maintaining VAG-cars, own a VAG-com etc.) and it must be an estate (or really big car).

Here are the finalists:

1. 2002 VW Passat B4 W8 with low miles. Dated looks but nice 275hp engine that sounds like nothing else. Rides good.

2. 2002 Audi S6 estate, lots of miles but maintained by Audi tech. Slushbox rebuilt (good!). 340hp.

3. 2008 WV Passat B6 AWD with 250hp 3.2 V6 and DSG. Low miles (how good is DSG6? Need to change oil every 40000 miles?)

4. Audi S8 2002-ish. Big, cheap, aluminium body, lot's of poke from 340hp V8.

Fire away.

Nostril Cheese · 03-15-2015, 12:14 AM

Keep in mind the models sold in the USA are not the same quality as those sold in Europe.

I'll take a Volvo or Saab over a V.A.G. product anyday, personally.

Everyone I know here with an Audi is always working on it.

Scuba Steve · 03-15-2015, 05:33 AM

The wife has a 2010 VW CC and it's been completely trouble-free if it helps any. No DSG issues, and it has the 2.0 4cyl.

onewhippedpuppy · 03-15-2015, 05:48 AM

I've heard some horror stories about the DSG, do some research there.

For me it would be the S8, no question. Of the four it will be the best built with the highest quality materials and the best to drive. I daily drove a 2002 S8 for a year, few cars have impressed me so much. I believe Javadog and his son both also daily drive D2 S8s. They are insanely well built and fantastic to drive, and also generally very reliable. Remember that they were Audi's $80k flagship, a lot of quality parts and engineering went into that car.

greglepore · 06:10 AM

All good choices other than the dsg car. I'm with Matt though, the s8 is simply in a different league than the other choices. I have a n '05 A8 in the household, and love it except for the air suspension, which the earlier cars lack. They have some of the usual VAG problems, but nothing you can't live with, and the driving experience is worth the cost of maintenance. Plus, things are accessible in a way that they aren't on the smaller Audi's. The s6 is very appealing, but I wouldn't want to work on it.

Targa Me · Targa Me's Garage

We have a 2003 VW Passat with the 1.8T. Personally, I'd rather have the W8, I"m not crazy about turbos.
I must say this has been a very dependable car for us. With 149K miles on it, I seldom need to work on it. Generally, when the engine trouble light illuminates, its a vacuum leak.
Of the four options you have listed I would pick the Audi S8. As the Puppy pointed out it was Audi's flagship so they put 100% into the car.

beepbeep · 03-15-2015, 07:23 AM

Thank you for the input.

SAAB is no-go. 9-5's are now old FWD cars with bad engine (except 1.9TiD diesel), NG 9-3 is too small. And company is actually defunct. The last 9-5 is nice, being Opel Insignia with fancy SAAB design.
Volvo is better than VAG on "family values" (safety, comfort, practicality), but driver dynamics are somewhat lacking. Besides, it is the most common car here in Sweden. I'm not a fan of Haldex 4wd either.

So VAG-car it is.

I kinda like old A8/S8 but we have two kids and car is roughly the shape of our C4 S4...you can pack enough of stuff in it, but just barely. Also, unless ATF oil is changed regularly (which factory says is not needed !??!) slushboxes are generally shot at 120kmiles. Many cars have rebuilt transmissions.

Passat B6 3.2 DSG is the most expensive option. I could buy two S6:s for one. 0-60 in less than 6 seconds (even faster with 3.6 V6), nice interior but DSG is unproven card. DSG7 is horrendeous, but DSG6 seem to be holding better (wet clutches and all)? Still, shape is rather pedestrian.

Passat W8 is interesting, basically an old Passat grafted on the top of A8 driveline + W8 engine (driveline is Audi stuff, not Haldex). Rather cheap too and you are guaranteed you won't see another one daily. DId I say W8 sounds like nothing else?

Audi S6 estate is basically a shorter S8 D2 estate minus alu body and cheaper interior. Similar engine /tranny = similar issues.

Hm... maybe I should drive more A8/S8's...

fanaudical · fanaudical's Garage

Personally, I vote to retain the UrS4. I think it is a better-built car than anything on your list and certainly easier to maintain for the home mechanic. But, if you must replace it, I would go with the S8.

Touching anything on the front of the motor of the S6 requires removal/extension of the front bumper/radiator carrier. Access around the V8 is tight. I believe the Passats are similar.

beepbeep · 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fanaudical

Personally, I vote to retain the UrS4. I think it is a better-built car than anything on your list and certainly easier to maintain for the home mechanic. But, if you must replace it, I would go with the S8.

Touching anything on the front of the motor of the S6 requires removal/extension of the front bumper/radiator carrier. Access around the V8 is tight. I believe the Passats are similar.

I would love to keep S4 but ancilaries are literally falling apart. I've changed most weird parts...doors, front arches, radiator, turbo hoses, clutch pedal (!), master+slave cylinder, slave cylinder hoses, steering pump hoses, differential (to Torsen), fuel pump (x2), brakes, brake calipers, brake hoses, Hall-sensors, ignition coils, suspension gadgets (couple of times), visco-fan, subframe bushings, exhaust system, catalysts etc. Car is 23 years old, 320000 km and driven daily in snow, salt etc. It's not really a California cruiser ...

Only things original are the tub, engine, turbo, clutch and gearbox

Everything else was changed at some point in time.

Also, UrS4 has even less space up front than V8 so bumper goes off for every cam belt change...luckily it's my second nature now so front goes off in 10 minutes.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

20 hours a year isn't all that bad. That's five Saturdays and you still have time to do stuff with her afterwards.

This sounds an awful lot like the typical woman thing - trying to force you to change into what she wants rather than accepting you for who you are. Be careful.

Just my $0.02 - don't mean to overstep but you mentioned in your OP that she's pressuring you. Red flag to a guy who's been around and been through it a few times...

beepbeep · 03-15-2015, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

20 hours a year isn't all that bad. That's five Saturdays and you still have time to do stuff with her afterwards.

This sounds an awful lot like the typical woman thing - trying to force you to change into what she wants rather than accepting you for who you are. Be careful.

Just my $0.02 - don't mean to overstep but you mentioned in your OP that she's pressuring you. Red flag to a guy who's been around and been through it a few times...

Hehe..."pressuring" is more tongue-in-cheek talk, don't read too much into it.
And having driven 90's car for 8 years, I wouldn't mind updating to 2000's either

Imagine all new idiosyncraties I have to learn...

onewhippedpuppy · 03-15-2015, 01:16 PM

You should also consider maintenance access, as most VAG cars royally suck. I know the V8 S6 looks like a nightmare to work on. The S8 is actually pretty good, there's adequate space around the engine for maintenance. Also should note that the back seat on the S8 is very large, we frequently carried three kids back there, two in car seats. It also has Recaros that are epic. Tranny fluid changes are important, look for a fluid/filter change at about 80k. If you DIY it's not a bad project. If the transmission does go south there an S8 guru in Chicago that rebuilds them, I think the cost is fairly reasonable.

Sicklyscott · 03-15-2015, 04:42 PM

I've heard horror stories about the W8. I'd steer clear.

The rest are great options but something to think about is the timing chain issues in the V8.

onewhippedpuppy · 03-15-2015, 05:21 PM

The timing chain issues aren't until the B6 S4. The D2 S8 and C5 S6 both use a timing belt.

SilberUrS6 · 03-15-2015, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fanaudical

Personally, I vote to retain the UrS4. I think it is a better-built car than anything on your list and certainly easier to maintain for the home mechanic. But, if you must replace it, I would go with the S8.

Touching anything on the front of the motor of the S6 requires removal/extension of the front bumper/radiator carrier. Access around the V8 is tight. I believe the Passats are similar.

Having owned an UrS car for a long time, I would agree. They are good-quality machines, and finding similar quality would be hard.

OK, cut to the chase. W8 is out - too complex, lots of parts that are W8-only. I love VAG cars, but you couldn't give me a W8 car if I was being forced to keep it, use it, and keep it on the road. Of all the cars listed, the S8 is the best choice, IF. The "IF" is all about that automatic transmission. The rest of the car is golden, even if the motor is a bit thirsty. It is a hell of a machine. But if that trans eats itself, you're down US$10k. On the upside, you can get these cars pretty cheaply. Probably due to the failure rate of those transmissions. I have heard of folks retrofitting these cars with an 01E six-speed...

onewhippedpuppy · 03-15-2015, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Having owned an UrS car for a long time, I would agree. They are good-quality machines, and finding similar quality would be hard.

OK, cut to the chase. W8 is out - too complex, lots of parts that are W8-only. I love VAG cars, but you couldn't give me a W8 car if I was being forced to keep it, use it, and keep it on the road. Of all the cars listed, the S8 is the best choice, IF. The "IF" is all about that automatic transmission. The rest of the car is golden, even if the motor is a bit thirsty. It is a hell of a machine. But if that trans eats itself, you're down US$10k. On the upside, you can get these cars pretty cheaply. Probably due to the failure rate of those transmissions. I have heard of folks retrofitting these cars with an 01E six-speed...

$10k?! No effing way, maybe if you bought a brand new one from Audi. TozoM8 from Audi World, who I believe is in Chicago, rebuilds them very reasonably. I'm a few years removed from S8 ownership, but I believe it was around $3k. Lots of positive reviews of his work on AW, he is an Audi guru. I actually spoke with him about a 6-speed manual conversion as he has done several, he doesn't do them anymore because they are so expensive.

Also worth noting, again, that changing fluid is the key to transmission life. Lots of guys with 200k+ on their original transmissions because they changed the fluid every 80k.

MattKellett · MattKellett's Garage

I owned a W8 wagon for 110k miles, DO NOT BUY ONE!!!!!!!

They are superb cars, very subtle, fast and sound great, a fantastic highway cruiser, BUT.....

Every 45k miles the cam shaft adjusters will fail, not maybe, but will fail on every single car. I was religious in changing the oil every 5k miles will the correct synthetic and mine failed twice. Once under warranty, that was a $10k repair and the second time it failed and I managed to trade it in at a VW dealer.

It really was probably my most favorite car I have ever owned, but had I known about the engine issues I probably would never have bought one.

There was a mechanic in Switzerland who had managed to keep his adjusters alive by shocking them periodically with 12v to the solenoid! I tried this on mine using his procedure, which actually worked for about 2k miles, before falling again, it was at this point that I traded the car.

Also if you go for the tiptronic transmission, which uses the same as the A6 Allroad, the torque converters have a high failure rate as well.

I hope this helps you a little on your search.

beepbeep · 10:26 PM

Thank you for your most excellent input. It is rather good to ask about advice about "wrong" brand in the forum as you skip the fanboys.

W8 is out then. I have heard about chain adjusters, but didn't know they are so trouble-prone.

So it is now down to these cars:

Passat Variant B6 V6 (Haldex + DSG unfortunately), most expensive option
Audi A8/S8 D2 (must find one with rebuilt tranny)
Audi S6 C5 (I have found an estate with rebuilt tranny, maintained by Audi mechanic)

There is also "a dark hose", which is buying a RS4 or such, but most that are on sale have questionable/dodgy history and they seem to be liked by criminals for doing smash & grab runs so insurance is sky-high...

P.S. I live in Sweden so letting US shop rebuild the transmissions is quite cumbersome

Scuba Steve · 03-16-2015, 02:39 AM

There's always a '92+ Volvo 960.

They have tons of space in the engine bay to make repairs!

onewhippedpuppy · 03-16-2015, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beepbeep

P.S. I live in Sweden so letting US shop rebuild the transmissions is quite cumbersome

Yeah, that would be an issue. On the upside, Europe did get the D2 S8 with a manual transmission, which is pretty much a dream car for me. If mine was a manual I would have never sold it.