The joys of being an employer

wdfifteen · wdfifteen's Garage

We had an employee (***y) who was chronically late to work. ***y was warned several times that he/she needed to show up on time. About 2 months ago ***y showed up 1 1/2 hours late. ***y said he/she was in a minor car accident on the way to work and it took the police that long to do their report and release him/her. We checked with the police and they had no record of anyone being dispatched to the area at the time ***y claimed he/she had the accident. Over the course of a couple of weeks we repeatedly asked ***y to bring us the police report. After two weeks of asking for the report our HR person confronted ***y.
***y confessed to lying to us about why he/she was late and was fired on the spot.

Today I get this email from our HR person:
***y applied for unemployment benefits after being dismissed. We got the determination back from the Unemployment Bureau that ***y was discharged unfairly because lying to your supervisor is not specifically prohibited in our handbook. ***y will be receiving unemployment benefits and our insurance rate will go up. We have to update the employee handbook. I will get something out to you both this week for your approval.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

I would always assume that terminating someone will result in their getting UI and your rates increasing. Even if done for a very legitimate, undisputed reason like low-performance or failure to meet goals, UI is pretty easy to get.

Brando · Brando's Garage

If terminated or laid off, you're almost guaranteed UI here. You have to be terminated for something criminal to be denied UI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I would always assume that terminating someone will result in their getting UI and your rates increasing. Even if done for a very legitimate, undisputed reason like low-performance or failure to meet goals, UI is pretty easy to get.

asphaltgambler · 05-11-2015, 06:38 AM

WOW! - here in 'ol Virginny - it's much different. My gov'mt is an 'at-will' / right-to-work state. You can be hired / fired for any reason - anytime. Of course there are certain legal issues that (and do) arise - but this is redonk-u-lous..............

Norm K · 05-11-2015, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

***y applied for unemployment benefits after being dismissed. We got the determination back from the Unemployment Bureau that ***y was discharged unfairly because lying to your supervisor is not specifically prohibited in our handbook. ***y will be receiving unemployment benefits and our insurance rate will go up. We have to update the employee handbook. I will get something out to you both this week for your approval.

Here's another one: Noting start times, hours, breaks, vacation, holidays, PTO, etc. isn't enough. If your company handbook does not specifically state that actually showing up for work is a condition of employment you might find yourself paying UI for a system-working deadbeat.

Jim Richards · 05-11-2015, 06:50 AM

I don't understand why ***y wasn't fired for being chronically late to work after being warned about that. Wouldn't that be more defensible re: UI?

I just saw nkowi's post. I guess that's pretty hard to defend. Damn, being an employer can be tough.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Was it cheaper to pay the insurance premium increase or would it have been cheaper to keep the employee even with all their issues? If it's the former, suck it up and deal with it. If it's the latter, you made a bad management call.

Sucks, I feel for you. This is why we need more "at will" states.

wdfifteen · wdfifteen's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I would always assume that terminating someone will result in their getting UI and your rates increasing. Even if done for a very legitimate, undisputed reason like low-performance or failure to meet goals, UI is pretty easy to get.

Interesting. I would expect someone to get UE for not meeting goals or something performance related. Here it used to be that your dismissal had to be due to something beyond your control, but Ohio is apparently getting as bad as Ca. You do something obvious to get yourself fired and get a paid vacation courtesy of people who go to work every day. Crazy.

masraum · 05-11-2015, 06:56 AM

Can you appeal?. I worked at a place where a guy got fired for stealing a huge list of customers and trying to sell it on eBay. He was initially awarded unemployment. The company appealed and eventually the decision was reversed and the guy asked to pay back what he had received.

Is there nothing in the employer handbook about being on time, and that could have been the reason for being fired?

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

A friend worked at a place (major national name) that had a time clock for salaried employees to punch in. They were very strict with punch-in times and one minute late a second time would earn demerits and termination after three offenses. So everyone punched in early all the time, as in every person, every day, for years. Eventually, someone who had gotten fired and was upset about it reported the time cards to the state and they started looking into "unpaid overtime." The employer eventually had to pay out millions for all those extra minutes people had been punching in before their shift was to begin.

dennis in se pa · dennis in se pa's Garage

I would appeal.

Oh Haha · 05-11-2015, 07:11 AM

Gee, his name isn't Mike --------- is it?

I'm kidding, of course but I had this kind of a$$clown that worked for me. I heard he finally got canned after I left for something similar to this situation.

I would appeal the decision if you can. Make it hard for the idiot to get anything!

My wife fired a worker a couple of weeks ago because he lied about an emergency that required days off. He admitted to it under scrutiny and was terminated. Laws vary state to state and MI is an "at will" state.

Man, I hate people that just don't get it. Show up on time, do your job well, go home safe. Rinse and repeat.

wdfifteen · wdfifteen's Garage

Ohio is an at-will state. There was no legal reason we couldn't fire ***y for lying to us.

I guess we all assumed lying to the boss would disqualify her from collecting UE. It would have if we had specific language in the handbook saying you can be terminated for lying. I am just amazed that you have to specifically state that for it to be valid. We'll be adding lying, cheating, stealing, and every other misbehavior we can think of to the handbook.
Our HR person used lying instead of chronic tardiness because our handbook outlines a procedure for dismissal for tardiness. We have to go through a verbal warning, then a written warning, then unpaid suspension before we can drop the axe, and we were still on the written warning stage. She lied to keep it from going to suspension. Everyone here just assumed lying to your boss would be sufficient justification for dismissal. I still can't believe the UE people think it's OK.

Oh Haha · 05-11-2015, 07:22 AM

It sometimes doesn't seem like it but the HR dept. can be your best ally. I had many conversations with ours at the time and followed their instructions to the tee.

As you may know my wife is the HR manager at an auto plant here. I cannot believe the stupid things she has had to fire people for. Seriously, it's like they have no clue!!

She pretty much had to write a new handbook when she started as the existing one was full of legal holes.

She's good at her job and knows the laws.

Good luck with the situation. I hope your company can make it stick.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

What about murder? Rape? Embezzlement? Would those need to be in the employee handbook too?

Yes it's stupid but I'm starting to wonder myself where this ends...

RF5BPilot · 05-11-2015, 08:00 AM

Washington State is at-will, but assumes ex-employees get UI payments unless the employer and the situation meets specific requirements. Any doubt and the decision goes to the employee.

This can be a workload as many employees seem immature for their age, expecting pay and raises for questionable behavior. But it's how they were raised....and now employers have to take over parenting. Not a good use of time.

On the other hand, I've seen terminations that have been arbitrary, fueled by the social/mental problems of the supervisor, who then lied to try to make it all seem proper.

So, we know the rules, build the required documentation for dysfunctional employees, then boot them and have had minimal UI payments over the last 35 years.

A number of employees were ok, just simply weren't a good fit for us. We worked to help them get alternative jobs with area employers so there simply was no down-time or UI payments. They just slid from one job to the next.

Dantilla · 05-11-2015, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RF5BPilot

Washington State is at-will, but assumes ex-employees get UI payments unless the employer and the situation meets specific requirements. Any doubt and the decision goes to the employee.

I had an employee quit to go back to school, and then file for unemployment.

Clearly not eligible for unemployment.
When we challenged it, one of the state's questions was "Do you still have work available for this employee" to which we answered "yes".

.....She was still awarded unemployment, and our rates went up. Grrrr........

wdfifteen · wdfifteen's Garage

^^
Five or so years ago we had an employee quit. When she found out she wouldn't be eligible for UE she claimed we fired her. She hired a lawyer, we didn't. We lost and she got her UE. About a year later she ran into me in the local grocery and asked if I would give her a positive recommendation if an employer called for a reference. She said she was having trouble getting jobs due to the 12 year hole in her work history. I told her I would only confirm that she worked here. She said, "Well, you can say that enthusiastically or you can make it sound bad." I simply said, "You burned your bridges very thoroughly. Too late to recross them now."

ckelly78z · 05-11-2015, 11:01 AM

I can't believe the amount of people who have come through the door here at the Ohio autoparts plant I work for. I'm no longer in the production side of it (did 15 years of hard labor) , but can tell you that there is a group of 5-6 new hirees walked through the plant generally on every Friday afternoon so they can start Monday morning. Many of them upon seeing that it is actually work, and not a sit-down line job, either don't show up for thier first day or don't come back after thier first day. I believe they are just trying to appease the government UE system by applying for available jobs, not expecting to accidently get hired to work.

There are alot of lazy users out there living off unemployment, and enjoying the extended length of available benefits made possible by Obama.....what a racket !

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckelly78z

There are alot of lazy users out there living off unemployment, and enjoying the extended length of available benefits made possible by Obama.....what a racket !

Lots of folks milk UI for as long as they can, even when they have no intention of finding work. I have a family member who did it after her job pretty much forced her out after 20 yrs. She was 63 by then, didn't need the money anymore, but felt like she had paid into the system for all those years and wanted to get a pound of flesh out of the employer who fired her. She rode that out for 99 wks. as allowed by law, never went to an interview.