Crime Victim's Obligations

Jeff Higgins · 07-19-2015, 03:59 PM

How obligated would a crime victim be with regards to meeting with or speaking with the defense attorney?

Odd question, I know, but it strikes me that I have never actually known anyone who who was an honest to God victim of a crime, wherein the perpetrator got caught and stands to do some time. I guess that's pretty darn good, having made it 55 years without knowing anyone - be it family, friend, coworker - who has been through this.

First, of course, comes the trial. Certainly the prosecutor will need to meet with the victim. I can't see many victims who would balk at this, having a vested interest in seeing the perp go to jail. The defense attorney would be another matter, however, with the victim being somewhat less than sympathetic to his client. So, is there any legal obligation for the victim to even talk to the defense attorney? Any ramifications (at trial or otherwise) for not doing so?

Baz · Baz's Garage

I'm not a legal expert but if you are subpoenaed for a deposition - by law I think you have to comply, whether for the defense or not.

dad911 · 07-19-2015, 05:05 PM

The case isn't determined in the courtroom, it's all in the testimony during the depositions. The lawyers will ask trick questions, so when they get the witness on the stand, if testimony doesn't match depositions exactly, witness loses credibility.

speeder · speeder's Garage

In a criminal case in the USA, there are no depositions and you absolutely do not have to and should not meet with the defense if you are the victim. There are only hearings and a trial. Keep in close consultation w the prosecutor and they will walk you through the ropes.

speeder · speeder's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baz

I'm not a legal expert but if you are subpoenaed for a deposition - by law I think you have to comply, whether for the defense or not.

At least you put that disclaimer in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dad911

The case isn't determined in the courtroom, it's all in the testimony during the depositions. The lawyers will ask trick questions, so when they get the witness on the stand, if testimony doesn't match depositions exactly, witness loses credibility.

Both of you are confusing the criminal justice system with the civil court system in the USA.

MRM · 07-19-2015, 06:21 PM

There may be nuances to individual cases, but Speeder is correct. Generally speaking the victim, or any witness in a criminal case, doesn't have an obligation to talk to the defense attorney. He may want to, and the defense attorney has the right to call, but the witness does not have an obligation to talk to anyone he doesn't want to.

PM me for a free individual consultation to determine your particular obligations.

In interests of full disclosure Speeder's dad was one of the biggest influences on my legal development. There were times (years) when I would have gladly tossed the old man under the nearest bus, but as the years passed I came to understand his wisdom and look forward to any comments he cared to offer. Even after he retired I would see him in the skyway frequently and he would always stop me and talk. I last saw him about a year ago walking with a gaggle of other judges and it was a delight. Much to their chagrin he stopped and talked to me for at least ten minutes as his high powered lunch companions waited. He passed away just a few months ago and I wasn't able to go to the funeral. I know Speeder mourns his passing and I am still not quite reconciled to the fact that I won't turn a corner on the skyway and see the old tyrant again.

None of this has anything to do with your original question other than to corroborate that Speeder comes by his legal knowledge honestly. And in some small measure is a way I can honor his father.

LakeCleElum · 06:26 PM

In felony cases, it is common for a defense "Investigator" and/or attorney take a deposition from a Victim. The Prosecutor's office would most always attend with the Victim and counsel their response...

This will vary from state to state as this is often determined by rulings from a State Supreme Court...

rusnak · 07-19-2015, 06:26 PM

MRM,^ What an awesome account! He sounds like my kind of guy!

LakeCleElum · 07-19-2015, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRM

Generally speaking the victim, or any witness in a criminal case, doesn't have an obligation to talk to the defense attorney. He may want to, and the defense attorney has the right to call, but the witness does not have an obligation to talk to anyone he doesn't want to.
.

MRM - Just trying to understand this, not argue with you:

So, if a defense attorney sends me (the vicitim) a subponea for a deposiition, I can just ignore it? Does not the defense have the right to full disclosure?

Tell us more about Speeder's father, was he an attorney? Sounds like a great guy....

jyl · jyl's Garage

Talk to the prosecutor.

speeder · speeder's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

MRM - Just trying to understand this, not argue with you:

So, if a defense attorney sends me (the vicitim) a subponea for a deposiition, I can just ignore it? Does not the defense have the right to full disclosure?

Tell us more about Speeder's father, was he an attorney? Sounds like a great guy....

Subpoenas are for testimony in a trial, not a deposition. Depositions are part of a civil lawsuit, not a criminal one. Somehow those two are getting confused in this thread.

I have no legal training other than growing up attending some trials. My dad was a criminal defense lawyer, (pretty good one, actually), and then a trial judge for 12 years until he had to retire at 70 per state law. He continued to work for a while as a retired judge, they fill-in when regular judges go on vacation or are sick, etc.

He was an unusual choice for the bench but we had a wacky governor at the time, (NOT Jesse Ventura, a different one), and I guess he liked my dad. It worked out really well for the old man because of the generous retirement including Cadillac health care benefits, poor guy got diagnosed with cancer a month after he retired and was in bad shape for 12 years until he died last Christmas. He was a tough mofo and a character.

When I was 10 years old in 1969, he took me to the jail one Saturday morning during the Hell's Angels conspiracy trial where he was one of the defense lawyers. He had to consult privately with his client, (the VP of the club), so he left me in the cell block with the rest of the bikers in jail. It seems inconceivable to me now but these were different times and of course he knew the jailers well. My uncle, (his brother), was a well known detective in the MPD and there was quite the family dynamic going on with them on opposite sides of the law, so to speak.

I remember him telling the Angels in his gravelly voice, "Watch my kid!", and suddenly I was in a lock-up with them. They were playing peaknuckle or some card game and tried to teach me so that I could join in. I was a little uncomfortable but I knew my dad would never put me in danger. Good times.

Lastly, thank you Mike for the kind words. There is an old joke that everyone on the Internet is tall and handsome but MRM really looks like Cary Grant and a better gentleman you will never meet.

Here is a photo of me with the old man in '69 from the *old family cars* thread:

Rot 911 · 07-20-2015, 04:46 AM

Some misinformation here. Know the rules in your own state. For example, in Missouri, the defendant can certainly depose the victim.

Missouri Supreme Court Rule 25.12. Misdemeanors or Felonies - Deposition by Defendant - How Taken

(a) In General. A defendant in any criminal case pending in any court may obtain the deposition of any person on oral examination or written questions. The manner of taking such depositions shall be governed by the rules relating to the taking of depositions in civil actions.

speeder · speeder's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rot 911

Some misinformation here. Know the rules in your own state. For example, in Missouri, the defendant can certainly depose the victim.

Missouri Supreme Court Rule 25.12. Misdemeanors or Felonies - Deposition by Defendant - How Taken

(a) In General. A defendant in any criminal case pending in any court may obtain the deposition of any person on oral examination or written questions. The manner of taking such depositions shall be governed by the rules relating to the taking of depositions in civil actions.

The defense can depose the crime victim and question them without a judge present before the trial?? That's the strangest thing I've ever heard in my life. Thanks for the info, I stand corrected.

Never heard of such a thing in any state I've lived in.

island911 · 07-20-2015, 07:25 AM

Dang... Sorry for your loss, speeder. Really.

speeder · speeder's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by island911

Dang... Sorry for your loss, speeder. Really.

Thank you.

MRM · 07-20-2015, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

MRM - Just trying to understand this, not argue with you:

So, if a defense attorney sends me (the vicitim) a subponea for a deposiition, I can just ignore it? Does not the defense have the right to full disclosure?

Tell us more about Speeder's father, was he an attorney? Sounds like a great guy....

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

MRM - Just trying to understand this, not argue with you:

So, if a defense attorney sends me (the vicitim) a subponea for a deposiition, I can just ignore it? Does not the defense have the right to full disclosure?

Tell us more about Speeder's father, was he an attorney? Sounds like a great guy....

In general lawyers don't use depositions in a criminal case. The rules of criminal procedure do allow depositions, but in practical terms they are very rarely used. The purpose of depositions is for pre-trial discovery. The lawyer gets to see what the witness is going to say at trial, and if the witness changes his story, the lawyer can use the deposition to cross examine the witness on the changed testimony. So a deposition would come before a trial.

In criminal cases there are pretrial hearings that serve the same purpose of previewing testimony as in a civil deposition. In Minnesota it's called an omnibus hearing. There are other types of contested evidentiary hearings too. I can remember once hearing about (it wasn't my case) an inexperienced defense lawyer who appeared at a pretrial conference and demanded a deposition of the investigating officers, but the judge convinced him that what he was really asking for was a contested omnibus hearing. So I've never actually seen a case where there was a deposition in a criminal case.

In my experience it would be very unusual for a defense attorney to issue a subpoena for a criminal deposition. In most states the court issues the subpoena but the lawyer has it served, and there are various other nuances, but suffice it to say that a crime victim being subpoenaed for pre-trial deposition testimony is very unusual. If it happened, the victim should immediately call the prosecutor's office and request direction. If it really was a subpoena for a deposition the prosecutor would be notified, witness fees would have to be paid, a court reporter would be present and the prosecutor would appear with the victim.

What is more typical is that the defense lawyer or an investigator will write a letter or call the victim and ask for a statement. Lay witnesses may not know the difference between a letter asking for a statement and a subpoena that compels attendance. Both Speeder and I took Higgins' question in that context. I'll let him speak for himself, but it sounded like a call or letter from the defense lawyer, not a subpoena. Of course, a trial subpoena cannot be ignored, but there isn't much (if any) obligation to talk to the defense attorney before trial. You can if you want, and a good defense attorney will at least make the call.

I don't know if I ever told Speeder the whole story of my time with his father. The short version starts with my first job as a newly minted prosecutor in Minneapolis. There are three basic tasks in prosecution: arraignments or first appearances, pretrial conferences, and trials. In Minneapolis we rotated through each assignment on a two week basis. So as my starting point, I was duly trained to do out of custody arraignments by a slightly more experienced young prosecutor and was allowed to spend an entire rotation on my own. Through a quirk of fate, the judge turned out to be on the same criminal rotation as me. He was a crusty old former defense attorney who's nickname was Bruce the Moose - Speeder's dad. So Judge Speeder had the pleasure of spending ten long days with an overly earnest and aggressive young prosecutor who was just learning the profession.

After mastering out of custody arrangements, I was naturally scheduled for my next rotation handling bail arguments for in-custody arrangements. Guess who got stuck doing an entire two week rotation on in-custody arrangements with me? I made the mistake once of trying to approach the bench to show the judge what was written in a police report to support my request for high bail. He snarled at me that he didn't need to read the police report because he already knew what was in it. As I stood there dumfounded, wondering how he could have read the police report before I got it, he proved his point by telling me exactly what the cops reported. Seeing the look on my face he said that he had been reading police reports for so many years that he could tell how the cops were going to spin their lies without having to read the report. Things went down hill from there

He was scary good at telling me what was in my police reports and he enjoyed telling me what my reports said and making my bail arguments for me before I got the chance as he set bail, all to frequently without waiting for the benefit of my contribution.

Ten days later we probably both sighed in relief as our rotations ended. I naturally went to pretrials, the next step in the training and criminal process. It was not a happy Judge Speeder who took the bench to see my shining face waiting for him with a handful of files waiting plea agreements to be approved and put on the record. But there was a silver lining. He announced that he would only be in pretrials for the one week because Judge Pierce was scheduled for pretrials the second week of the rotation.

The following Monday, Judge Pierce was sick. Guess who filled in for her the entire week? Let's just say that by this time Judge Speeder and I had reached a bit of détente.

After pretrials, it was time to get some real experience and take my first rotation on the trial calendar. Judges who are on a criminal assignment and are not in arraignments, pretrials, or other hearings are put on the trial calendar where they have a day in chambers to catch up if a trial doesn't get assigned to them that day. Judge Speeder apparently prevailed upon the chief judge to give him a trial rotation to make up for all the time he spent in pretrials and arraignments, because he welcomed me to his chambers for my first trial assignment as warmly as the wolf invited Little Red Riding Hood into Grandma's house.

We both survived my first couple of months as a prosecutor and things got back to a more normal frequency of appearances after that. A few years later I joined a civil litigation firm and he was assigned one of my cases. He actually presided over my first civil jury trial, at one point helpfully breaking into my closing argument to tell me to stop arguing liability because no one could deny that my client was completely at fault. The jury eventually found no liability on my client. The decision apparently shocked everyone but me.

So for several years I pretty much lived in fear of Judge Speeder. It wasn't really until he got close to retirement that he eased up on me. After he retired he still filled in as a judge when they needed coverage, so I saw him pretty frequently. I had to remind myself that this was the same judge who seemed to take pleasure terrorizing me when I was a youngster. He'd always stop me in the skyways and talk whenever we ran into each other. He was usually walking with some other high powered individual who he's introduce to me and then make to wait while he chatted with me. I even had a chance to introduce my oldest son to him a year or so ago when he was having lunch with me and we saw the judge in the skyway. He was as gracious as ever and told my son that I was a good lawyer. He was exaggerating, but I appreciated his little white lie for my son's benefit.

LakeCleElum · 07-20-2015, 02:04 PM

Denis and MRM - Thax for the stories about a great man.

Jeff: What have you gotten yourself into this time?

Jeff Higgins · 07-20-2015, 04:16 PM

Wow, really sorry to hear about your dad, Denis. Sounds like one hell of a guy.

Sorry Bob, but I probably shouldn't get into any detail yet. Suffice to say the other guy went to jail, will likely return for at least a cursory sentence, and a gun was involved - his. I'm very happy to report that I was unharmed, went home safe and happy, and gave Lori-Jo a great big hug.

speeder · speeder's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Wow, really sorry to hear about your dad, Denis. Sounds like one hell of a guy.

Sorry Bob, but I probably shouldn't get into any detail yet. Suffice to say the other guy went to jail, will likely return for at least a cursory sentence, and a gun was involved - his. I'm very happy to report that I was unharmed, went home safe and happy, and gave Lori-Jo a great big hug.

Thank you and glad you're ok. Sounds like a very unpleasant situation, to say the least.

MRM · 07-20-2015, 04:58 PM

Didn't mean to hijack your thread, Jeff. But the offer still stands. If you want to talk about your rights and obligations pm me and I'll give you a call.