Math Question Help Needed

[zakthor]

Originally Posted by winders

Guys, syntax is critically important. That is why your teachers wanted you to pay attention to it. Without uniform syntax properly written, it would be impossible to convey even the simplest mathematics, much less complicated mathematics.

Just because some "math majors" use that uniform syntax to create "useless math games" does not mean the one should not pay attention to syntax structure.

For example:

6÷2(1+2)=?

Without proper evaluation of the uniform syntax, you might think the answer was "1" when it is "9".

The concept of syntax is important (so your writing can be understood) but for me it was a breakthrough to understand that a specific convention is far from the meaning of a statement. Sometimes you get teachers that must teach beyond their understanding and they end up emphasizing the wrong things. Example: Kids often 'learn' to carry without understanding why it works, the symbol manipulation 'is' math to them. Much bigger problems with how linear algebra is taught because the conventions are so clever and interwoven that folks don't often see the bigger picture.

[island911]

Exactly, zak. ....Zakly ? --oh wait, that wouldn't be perfect grammar, and none would understand.

I've been a student, and a teacher(engineering). When doing, or grading math problems sloppy syntax is no biggie, as long as people get to where they need to go. --Using math is not the same as publishing math, except for the math geeks, whose heads explode if every little step isn't perfect. (because they are so committed to the structure)

[winders]

Originally Posted by island911

Exactly, zak. ....Zakly ? --oh wait, that wouldn't be perfect grammar, and none would understand.

I've been a student, and a teacher(engineering). When doing, or grading math problems sloppy syntax is no biggie, as long as people get to where they need to go. --Using math is not the same as publishing math, except for the math geeks, whose heads explode if every little step isn't perfect. (because they are so committed to the structure)

So English teachers should say syntax "is no biggie" as long as the student gets where they need to go?

Yes, it is important to understand the whats and the whys....but understanding the importance of syntax and using it properly are equally important in a mathematics class. In Shop class, for example, the math syntax is far less important than "getting where they need to go". In most people's every day lives math syntax is far less important than "getting where they need to go". In math class? Syntax is important.

[island911]

This thread started out with a problem that used * in algebra eqn that did NOT mean multiplication. --That led to confusion. BUT the math geek who wrote the problem knew exactly what he was asking.

So, there ya go. Full circle. With the conclusion that syntax conventions are important, but not everything.

[zakthor]

Originally Posted by winders

So English teachers should say syntax "is no biggie" as long as the student gets where they need to go?

Yes, it is important to understand the whats and the whys....but understanding the importance of syntax and using it properly are equally important in a mathematics class. In Shop class, for example, the math syntax is far less important than "getting where they need to go". In most people's every day lives math syntax is far less important than "getting where they need to go". In math class? Syntax is important.

Equally important? Really? I knew kids in college who could go through the motions required in a class by following syntax and rules but missed the big picture. Most knew they were fakers and stayed away from the tough stuff (probability, analysis). I'm guessing they took their math degrees and went on to be bad math teachers that prioritized method, process and punctuation.

Anyway, I was really surprised and impressed by island11s response because I think the syntax fixation is a serious problem in our math education today. Hate to see kids burned out by it.

Ps: yeah I also think its a waste of time to teach grammar. read awesome books and write convincing essays. Frik'n prepositions... wtf?

[winders]

zakthor,

What part of "equally important" are you not understanding?

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by zakthor

The concept of syntax is important (so your writing can be understood) but for me it was a breakthrough to understand that a specific convention is far from the meaning of a statement.

So your writing can be understood is the point isn't it? What good is it for an individual to understand what he means if he can't communicate it to anyone else? It's not just the concept of syntax that's important, it's understanding and proper use are critical, in math and language.

[island911]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

So your writing can be understood is the point isn't it? What good is it for an individual to understand what he means if he can't communicate it to anyone else? It's not just the concept of syntax that's important, it's understanding and proper use are critical, in math and language.

Da Vinci wrote in his journals backwards, so that they would not be easily read. Yet his notes were obviously quite compelling in what they represented, no matter how completely back-assward the syntax.

To your grandma example there; it's missing context. Which leaves even the first version open to the idea that the sentence is discussing incestuous oral sex.

[zakthor]

Syntax for communication has a reasonable circle of uncertainty which is why compiler parsers are easier than natural language parsing. Yeah it matters lots when you're typing into your calculator.

As for what part of equals do I not get? I feel syntax is way less important than the meaning, the two are not even a little bit equal.

Sorry I feel like I'm attacking a straw man here - I mean no disrespect but this subject gets me going. Some folks really are caught up by grammar and form. How about this: "Grammar is to language as pre-genetics botany is to plants." Yeah?