Do you really care if VW/Others manipulate EPA ratings?

[Macroni]

Yes.... I do feel deceived. I have always been a proponent of diesel over electric and did not understand why all cars were not first powered this way..... Now a well running gas motor might be the ticket for the future. I still question long term impact of batteries... only thing clear is I have been doped.......

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by dafischer

Well, it sure ain't a selling opportunity.

It is if the stock goes down another 40% from here.

[Gretch]

Originally Posted by Nickshu

This. How about we focuse on emissions from developing countries or unregulated countries which are exponentially more significant than a little carbon out of a few TDI Jettas.

Two completely different, unrelated issues.

1) Customers purchase a product from VW which they had every right to believe was legal to use. VW lied to them and co opted and compromised them in a crime.

2) Justifying that VW purposely built and sold 11 million cars which were designed to circumvent laws and regulations in markets they sold into because they feel the laws are not "fair" is a spurious argument.

NO corporation will survive such behavior with out substantial consequences. "Only those with something to lose must obey the rules".

It is astounding to me that VW acted in this manner. I drive BMWs. If BMW behaved this way, I would be done with the company, permanently. This is theft and bald faced lying on a GRAND and incredibly arrogant scale.

Oh yeah, and I give a rat's ass about the US Government or the EPA...... two of the largest, most successful organized crime rings in the world.

[Gretch]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Stock is down 40%. Might be a buying opportunity.

Falling knife.

[Jim Richards]

U.S. taxpayers duped into shelling out $51 million in green subsidies for 'clean' VW vehicles - LA Times

[strupgolf]

[QUOTE=Gretch;8806433]Two completely different, unrelated


No they're not. This is what some of us are saying, a small fish in a big pond, first things first. VW sold these 11 million cars WORLDWIDE, not just the US. Many of those countries dont have any " rules and regulations" regarding emissions. If you think that all corporations follow the rules, sorry, you are mistaken. And to "give a rats ass" about the EPA, then cry because they are not protecting you is naive.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Gretch

Customers purchase a product from VW...and VW co opted and compromised them in a crime.

This is a wee bit much. I don't need hyperbole with my morning coffee, thanks.

JR

[FLYGEEZER]

Dilligaf ?

[javadog]

If you assume the EPA is both fair and knows what they are doing, read this:

Wyoming welder faces $75,000 a day in EPA fines for building pond on his property | Fox News

JR

[gacook]

Originally Posted by jyl

If you complain that EPA testing methods are too easily fooled, then you must want EPA to load up auto companies with more and more onerous, expensive and burdensome certification testing protocols. Then you'll complain about that.

No, sir. If the EPA comes out with regulatory standards that all car manufacturers must conform to, I expect the EPA to be able to efficiently and effectively test those standards. That is on THEM, not the car manufacturers.

[dafischer]

Originally Posted by Gretch

Falling knife.

Maybe a dead cat bounce today? Hope not.

[Iciclehead]

Speaking as a corporate guy with a bunch of executive experience, I suspect that this was a pretty deliberate strategy by some senior guy in VW, rationalized up the wazzoo.

If it were me, I would be looking at the test performance of the diesel engine under the EPA engine regime and realize that the performance was not good enough to sell enough cars to make my bonus/numbers. I'd be leaning on the development guys to find out what they could do to make the car more driveable and give me an advantage in terms of some marketable value such as fuel economy.

Dutifully, the development guys would say that the EPA test was a heavy load on the system and if they could relent the engine management regime to a lighter one for NOx, they could do wonderful things for the car (mileage, performance, engine life etc). There'd be all sorts of closed door meetings where PowerPoints would be shown, rife with jargon, that may well have said that real world NOx did not really matter, that the test was bogus and gamed all the time with things such as gearing and it would be relatively easy to ensure that the engine management system was doing its top job when EPA testing was underway.

...oh, and we'd never do anything nasty, just want to make sure that the EPA mode is good and then give the best performance on factors that matter to our beloved (gullible) owners.

Proposal accepted, software development done with directives that say things like "to ensure our owners are not bothered by failures of EPA testing, detect and select regimes that ensure our cars pass the test....other modes of operation, do what you need to make the advertised, competitive advantage numbers work.

...and so it goes....

Dennis

[Deschodt]

To me it's not a "care or don't care" deal. It's just flabbergasting that a company the size of VW let that happen, or worse, knowingly (at the top level) made that happen. In this day and age where no data is safe from hacking, someone thought they could have a "cheat mode" on the car and get away with it ? With the penalties that carries ? Really ???

I'm genuinely curious to learn how this unfolded, at what level did a manager/engineer pull a fast one, how high did it go, etc ? Really really amazing !

As for polluting, yeah... Europe has had a majority of diesels for years due to gas taxation, some cleaner than others, the walls in every european city needs to be pressure washed every 5 years or they are black... The fact VW had no "pee" (adblue) and passed EPA was eyebrow raising to me. I sold mine years ago because I feared the high pressure fuel pump issue and the car bored the **** out of me past the initial MPG/low end torque excitement...

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by KNS

I think you might care if you owned one and the fix (possibly mandatory?) involved using more fuel ($$) to cover the same distance on your long commute.

That was not the question asked.

I personally think this is much more pervasive than a single company doing it. VW just got caught first. Do I care that VW gamed the system? Not really, I have no doubt that they all do so.



I have not been impressed with VW products since about 1979

[zelrik911]

Originally Posted by Gretch

NO corporation will survive such behavior with out substantial consequences. "Only those with something to lose must obey the rules".

It is astounding to me that VW acted in this manner.

German Gov. knew & colluded with VW over cheating:

The German government is now in danger of being dragged into the scandal after admitting that it already knew about defeat devices that could cheat emissions tests.

Written responses from the transport ministry to questions from the Green party in July show the government was aware of the devices. However, the transport ministry said it had “no knowledge” of the devices actually being used, and there was no mention of VW.

Oliver Krischer, the deputy leader of the Green party, told German television that this showed the government knew that car makers were trying to manipulate emissions tests. He said: “The government worked together with the auto industry, not to ensure that the emissions levels were reduced, but so that the measuring system was set up in such a way that on paper the cars met the necessary standards.”


Volkswagen chief quits over emissions scandal as car industry faces crisis | Business | The Guardian

[Jeff Alton]

Don't care at all. Plus, pretty sure VW got caught, but they are not alone in this sort of ECU tuning....

[impactbumper]

Originally Posted by Jeff Alton

Don't care at all. Plus, pretty sure VW got caught, but they are not alone in this sort of ECU tuning....

pretty sure others will follow.

[flyenby]

They should have to pay like any scammer who gets caught....

[NY65912]

What VW did was wrong, it broke the law. But, how many here have had a performance chip installed or a reflash of their ECU done? Or, how about trying to get one of our P cars to pass state emissions testing, empty cat etc.

What is really ingenious is the way that they (VW) were able to pull this off. They had software that detected steering and pedal movement. When the lack of movement in the steering or pedals was detected the car knew that it was being tested for nitrogen-oxide emissions. The car then automatically switched on the "clean map". Otherwise the car reverted to the "un-clean" setting. Pretty smart. Just sayin.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I'm an equal opportunity hater.

I hate when big corporations break the law to make more money just the same as welfare and Medicaid abuse and corruption.

I will admit though that gaming the system with no accountability when caught encourages introspection by all corporations and all citizens alike to self-reflect and realize that breaking the law for personal gain is in no one's best interest.

Both Corporate America and welfare queens will learn a lot from this situation.