Home Electrical Question - Replacing Main Breaker
 

I have a Zinsco Breaker Box. I've read horror stories regarding this type of old system but mine has been trouble free until this weekend.

The power went out during stormy weather and when it came back on only half the house came back to life. Puzzled, I went to the breaker box and flipped off/on all breakers but no success. The next morning I went to each room to determine which lights were not working and when I got to the kitchen and turned on the stove all the lights came on. ????

I went back to the breaker box and flipped off/on the main several times and everything started working. I came to the conclusion that the stove trick was related to it being 240v and drawing from both bus bars and somehow completed the circuit.

I went to buy a new main breaker (which I bought) and it was $179 ouch! A whole new service box with the main breaker included is $159 but installation is a big job.

My Questions:
To replace the main breaker, power must be shut off by the utility company. Do I have to call them or can I simply unplug the meter? I know that removing the meter will remove all power from the bus bars and main breaker but I'm worried that the utility company will then come after me - or, the smart meter tells on me or needs resetting.

I'm certain that I can replace the whole breaker box myself but this would require the utility company shutting off power. If I go this route, will they shut off, give you time to reinstall everything, and then come back? If I go this route I can't afford to have the power off for more than one day.

Any thoughts would be great.

P.s. The reason I wanted to just replace the main breaker is because I have already replaced most of the regular breakers and have a lot invested at this point. The bus bar appears good without any corrosion or burn marks.

If you plan on changing the box you need to have the power shut off at the pole. Do not do this by yourself, you need a permit. There is huge danger and liability to doing this yourself... By code, you will likely need a new 100 or 200 amp service, new grounding rods, and possibly more.

I do all my own electrical. Changing out a box by yourself is a no-no. The electrical to the building must be shut off, and the electric company will only do that for a licensed electrician.

If you do it, and that building ever burns down, you have future never ending liability...

Bo

Had an extra box put in years ago to separate units.
Electrician installed a heavy duty breaker between the box and street.
It was code he said. Good idea.

Agreed with Bo. To cut power from the pole you typically need to pull the meter, which requires cutting an anti-tamper tag on the meter box. Let's just say that if you hypothetically have a few of the anti-tamper meter tags that this can be done DIY.....:D

I've replaced a 240V breaker hot but it's really a bad idea. I've also seen what happens when someone lets a screwdriver slip when working in a 240V box, you need a new screwdriver and potentially a new pair of pants.

If you pull meter head, power downstream to the main circuit breaker and distribution box is off. You can then change main breaker. If changing the box, do like bpu699 says. It needs to be inspected by an electrical inspector before utility co. turns power on. This of course takes days, weeks, months to get inspected. If box is in good shape, just replace main breaker. Just make sure it is of same rating, not higher. Once you pull meter head, shouldn't take but a few minutes to replace main. You will probably have to cut off seal in your meter head box, but so what? Utility co will just replace it with another. "Gee, don't know what happened to the seal mr. Meter reader"...

You need a permit and around here to do the work on your residence that involves going down and taking a simple test and paying the money.

The power company will pull the meter and work with you to minimize the time you are without power.

("No. Not sure where that little resistor thingamajob came from. Total blank here. Damn kids.") :D

I cut the tag and pulled my meter last year to chase a problem. Turned out the problem was in the vault and power company fixed it. They put put on a new tag, but weren't happy the old one was gone.

At least in KS, they can refuse to turn your power back on without an inspection from a licensed electrician if they suspect you were working on your own house. I suppose you could claim that someone vandalized your box and cut the tag and probably get away with it.

dude, if you have zinco, i would suggest an upgrade

yep.

Change out the main panel is in the works for you, my friend. I am not kidding. Zinsco have a known track record of not working properly and many houses have burned due to faulty breakers made by them. Many of the barkers have been found melted together and not tripping or cutting power allowing unsafe amount of electricity into the home. It will not pass UL approval today due to their faulty design. Look into it.

Installation of a new panel is about 2k, but replacing 5 breakers will run you about 1000 bucks and you still have the same problem. When I tell some of my clients, they think I am trying to sell an Eskimo ice.

Oh yeah, you need a permit and pass inspection so the electric company will jump your power over. If not, no deal.

Give them a picture of losing everything they hold emotionally and monetarily important:
-Sleeping in a friends basement or motel or car for half a year or more.
-Dealing with new daily logistical challenges like food pooping and showers.
-Dealing with paperwork lost and very unfriendly beneficiaries (i.e. insurance adjusters).
-Waiting. and. Uncertainty. Life ruined.

Is all that worth a thousand bucks?

Most folks eventually come to their senses in a couple of days. There are those few who do not and I almost never end up working for them. I see trouble looming down the road when they don't listen to real issues. After a couple of meeting with new clients, I point out all items that are needed, depending how extensive we gut the house. Electrical panel change out was never expected, so its a hard pill to swallow.

With a (pro) friend, I removed my meter, replaced my box, all my breakers and installed a new mast on my house in about 2 hours. Utility company will never be the wiser.

Yes it's true that if you don't know what you're doing you can make a few poor choices and really hurt yourself.

If you're not comfortable and in control of your own destiny, pony up a few $K and let the pros do it, and sleep at night. A fine choice!

I am a do it yourselfer and have built a few houses complete. Footer to roof. I would give this job to a professional. You do not want to find out what you don't know somewhere in the middle of this.

I got rid of a Federal Pioneer panel for the same reasons listed as the Zinco panel. The old Federal panel had almost no room in it compared to a new modern panel.
Plus I needed more breaker space.
It really isn't a bad job if you are familiar with power and don't electrocute yourself.
Mine was easy as the garage panel is the main panel and the house is a sub panel. I could just shut off the main breaker for the house and run in power from the garage to run the fridge and freezer and work lights in the laundry room where the panel is located.
Was maybe 4 hours of work for the initial change out.
Find a good independent electrician that will permit the job and have it inspected.

Thanks all for the advice.

Sounds like I will be replacing the entire breaker box. That said, I will have it done by an electrician. I am not going to cut corners to save a couple of bucks and then burn my house down in the process.

I spent $500 yesterday on new breakers which I can return and trade in for the breaker box. After that, I will check with an electrician on getting it done properly. Fortunately, my box is outside the house and looks like an easy swap (other than cutting off the main power and changing out the main line in).

Ask around and see if anyone knows a good electrician, most of those guys do simple work like this on the side for cash. It's a huge discount over going through an electrical company.

Around here, we need to call the electric co. so they can send out a spotter for the panel. They dictate exactly where the new panel needs to go. Find out if you need to do that. Its the first step. That can take a week for them to come out. Its a free service. without the spotter's paper work, our inspector wouldn't pass us.

I had my 100 amp Zinsco panel replaced last year. I used a two brother electrical crew that I found a couple years back that do great work for reasonable cost. They had to file for the permit and the electric company came out and verified before work started. On install day the power was cut, guys did the swap, work was verified and signed off, and power was restored. I wanted to upgrade to 200 amp but the power source is underground from the street so cost to trench 400' would have been mine. So I settled on a 125 amp panel. Total cost was $1600 and additional $200 for stucco patching.

The electric brothers said I was lucky that my home had not burned down yet. My 70's era home appears to have had a series of 'remodels' and the electric as seriously messed up (junctions behind drywall) and tons of uncovered splices. Don't take chances folks.

I bought a BRAND NEW Zinsco main breaker box (full of breakers) at a garage sale for $50 ... WOW! What a score! I wanted to replace the old fuse box in my 85 year old home.

I asked my good buddy (Card Carrying 25 year IBEW Electrician) to help me perform the install. When he saw the garage sale Zinsco he picked it up and threw it in the trash. His reply was: "you wasted $50 ... but I may have just saved your life ... I like your wife and kids too!"

Do it yourself, house burns down, insurance company denies claim.

Fear of burning your house down is as irrational as not pumping gas in case your car explodes at the pump.

The probability is minuscule, and it approaches zero if you know what you're doing. And it's not rocket science.

?

You might have missed the faulty breaker part. They melt instead of tripping and will continue to allow electricity to flow through. It has nothing to do with installation methods or mistakes

I haven't done anything yet but I am looking for a local independent electrician.

But, I was just wondering....The breakers that I purchased are manufactured by Connecticut Electric and are replacements for Zinsco. The package says UL Approved. Does this mean that they are an acceptable replacement for Zinsco?

Also, is a main breaker for 200 amp service the same thing as the double 100 amp breaker. My current main breaker has two switches that both say 100, but the switches are green. When I looked up Connecticut Electric website they list main breaker separate from the one that I bought even though the one I bought looks identical to what's in my box now.

This is only for my education and I intend to replace the whole box this month.

Does the breaker you bought have a metal post between the two switches? If used as a main it either should or you would have to connect the switches where the holes are in them.
The UL is only for it's approval to be used as a electrical switch, not necessarily how or as a replacement of etc.
I'd stay miles away from any replacement for a faulty panel. The Zinsco's or Federal Pacific panels just simply should be removed and trashed. The technology /construction of new panels is miles above what it once was

I was responding to another comment regarding 'doing it yourself and burning your house down', not leaving a defective breaker in place.

This is a repair I would do myself, and I would sleep soundly afterwards.

"So Mr x... is it true that you installed the electrical panel in the home that caught fire and killed the Smith family?"

..."Well yes your honor, but that was 20 years ago...and...and... I am pretty sure that I did it right...."

"So Mr. X, can you inform us of your formal training as an electrician? Doing it properly means you pulled permits and had it inspected, correct...?"

..."Um, well, no, but I am really good at doing stuff myself..."


Then, you simply write a check for your entire net worth to the other parties lawyer...




I do a lot of my own electrical. It isn't that difficult. Heaven forbid something happen, little risk down the road for most things. I have put in additional electric breaker boxes next to a pre-existing...

Not sure I would risk my life working on live lines from the street to avoid a $1500 charge...

Who said anything about live lines?

I'm an EE, pretty sure I could do it, live or not. But I would pull the meter.

How you go from installing a new breaker panel (on a drywall backing, by code) is beyond me.

I stand by what I said. None of the 600 volt machines I have wired over the years have blown up or caught fire. I don't think 110 V is about to scare me.

Its 240 BTW. I don't know what kind of electrical "stuff" you design, but I am sure you know what you are doing, if not, you wouldn't tear into your own house.

I don't know what does being an EE have to do with wiring up a main panel? I have done a ton of work for a a bunch of NASA or JPL engineers or physicists over the years. As a matter of fact, I am in the middle of one right now for some head honcho at JPL. I always remember this conversation with a home owner. He was the really, really smart physicists. My electrician and I were talking about grounding to water pipe and the Ufer ground. He sticks his nose into our conversation and said, " I should know that method and the code required, I have two PhDs in Physics." We both stopped and looked at him and said what do you suggest so we pass code?" Crickets were all we heard. He continues to mention his PhDs for some times after that.

the whole point is to do the electrical work to building code. Not only it is safe, but if something happens, the blame is shifted to the mfg and not the installer.

i understand what you are saying c4s.it's easy, the new panel will be larger than the old panel.
if you do it right, it won't show through the drywall.

Geeze, it appears that my power outage and subsequent breaker failure has stimulated some interesting conversation.

Regarding building code...I intend to have my repair done to updated building codes.

Next Question: Does anyone have a recommendation on brand for the new box (i.e., Square-D, etc..)?

My setup is fairly simple. I currently have 200 amp service and I believe that this is adequate for my home. The only future major electric that I plan to add is a hot tub and that will be mostly gas heated with electric pumps. I currently have electric dryer, electric stove, and electric oven and will some day convert to gas stove. My house was built in 1949, has romex wiring through out the house with 50% 3-wire romex with ground. My breaker box is mounted on the outside of the house with the electric meter at the top.

I really just wanted to replace my main breaker but this new info that I have added should encourage some more arguments.

Lastly, just to keep it interesting, here is a photo of our breakers at work - 480V :)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1445473984.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1445474014.jpg

Where I live the breaker has to be mounted on drywall. All I was trying to convey was that I would follow the local code.

It's 110 to ground/neutral, which is the typical manner people get a shock, (line to line shocks are uncommon) as opposed to our 600 v industrial lines. Somewhat more dangerous.

I have no further comment; Hugh was afraid someone would burn their house down, I don't agree. Yes, turn the power off, follow the code and it will be fine.

it's 240 phase to phase.
so you know a dry room,
can you wire a three way?
it's gonna take at least 6 hours.
keep the fridge closed.
i'm more familiar with seimens over square d.

Hugh is absolutely right, which is why I didn't rewire and pull new cable through the conduit in my 87-year old house.

I wish I had, because it would have only cost my about $500.

I did adjust the timing on both my 911s, which (if done poorly) could (over time) grenade a 5-figure engine and conceivably kill a passenger riding with me if it locked up and caused us to crash.

I saw your post with "Federal Pioneer" and wondered if you meant "Federal Pacific." As it turns out, Federal Pioneer panels are just re-labeled Federal Pacific panels that were sold in Canada. "Stab-Lok" breakers are the culprits. Apparently, the guys at Federal Pacific "faked" the UL certification on the panels and sold them without having them tested. :D

Pretty ballsy.

I just bought an apartment complex that was built in 1967 and I have to change out 81 Federal Pacific breaker panels as a condition for obtaining property insurance. I have 60 days to get it handled and It's going to be a $52k fix (materials and labor). Money well spent.