What lifetime benefits do wounded/disabled vets get?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by cairns

You mean like the VA has? And not a soul was held accountable? Except the whistleblowers who brought it up?

An OP from the NYP follows but it shares my sentiments. A bloated, inefficient, incredibly unaccountable agency that has taken over four months and still hasn't been able to schedule a colonoscopy for a veteran shouldn't continue to exist in its present form. An agency that gives millions to the undeserving but fails to protect those who are.

The answer to our problems is not more government it's less. A lot less.

Just another silly article that attacks people who have little or no ability to fix the problem (but, based on previous posts...you are somehow jealous of perceived employee benefits...which are simply not very good or it would not be so hard to hire/retain people).

Sadly, such articles generate investigation after investigation which burn huge amounts of funding that would have otherwise been spent on care. Of course, no Congressional investigation would ever show that the true problem if Federal law (which they passed) or Executive direction to the Agency (by the President), because they both fund and have oversight over the Agency. Like most political issues, the problem and solution are simple (but clouded by obfuscation which is swallowed in it's entirety by the gullible populace who are really more concerned with their own wallet than veteran care). The VA is simply the McDonalds version of health care. Millions of customers, with decent, but not exactly premium products. You might have a long wait if you order something special or if you show up n a day when half the minimum wage employees quit for better pay..

I have to laugh at how you seem to think has anything to do with the schedulers or bureaucracy and not the number of doctors. You keep complaining about spending money on the VA system (and actually call to cut funding) and at the same time complain about how long it takes to get a routine, nonemergency procedure. I guess that is only a priority when it is your or your family). It doesn't take a whole lot of thinking to recognize a capacity issue. Spend the money to increase the number and quality of medical professionals to that of a first-rate private hospital and that will solve the problem. You get what you pay for.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Spend the money to increase the number and quality of medical professionals to that of a first-rate private hospital and that will solve the problem. You get what you pay for.

The small problem is that nobody seems to be willing to actually pay for what currently is being offered, much less for the kind of services you seem to be advocating. And the details are important here. How much would it cost, over and above the current price, and from where does this money come? How much of that additional cost are you willing to assume - that is, how much additional money every year are you willing to spend in order to make this "better Veterans Administration" thing happen?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

The small problem is that nobody seems to be willing to actually pay for what currently is being offered, much less for the kind of services you seem to be advocating. And the details are important here. How much would it cost, over and above the current price, and from where does this money come? How much of that additional cost are you willing to assume - that is, how much additional money every year are you willing to spend in order to make this "better Veterans Administration" thing happen?

I just described what is necessary to achieve the outcomes that many here seem to want. First rate medical care for qualified veterans. If that is what they really want, they either need enough skilled doctors, technicians and equipment to provide that care or reduce the number that qualify. Wasting money on continually reorganizing management/administration will never fix having too few and low quality physicians...although that stalling tactic will eventually appear to solve the problem (as the WW2 and Vietnam veterans die off).

If you were running a Porsche repair facility and had one guy at the front desk and two entry-level mechanics in the garage...with a hundred cars a day in the parking lot with owners desperate for repairs...firing the guy at the front desk does not fix the cars or your problems.

If you really want my personal opinion as to funding, I would move money from income-based social welfare and hire the best doctors from the private sector or just send them to a private facility to start with...but I am certainly willing to pay my share of providing better veteran care if necessary.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I am certainly willing to pay my share of providing better veteran care if necessary.

There you go. Now all you have to do is convince someone other than me. BTW, I am actually in agreement. More skilled personnel are required, and that will cost more money. And I am also willing to spend more to make that happen.

[Reiver]

Originally Posted by tevake

OK Reiver, thats the second time you have made this statement about short term service men.
First off guys of all length of service game the system. And with your length of service Im sure you saw the mastery at gaming that grew for some with long years in service.

And your underlying theme is very familure to me from Nam. The lifers were too mission critical to spend much in the field. Much better to send the draftees and rotc junior officers to the bush. They are much easier to replace after all.

So the REMF lifers could stay in the rear to direct operations. And keep their barstools at the club warm.
Oh they might fly in AFTER a big encounter to asses the the situation and BOOST MORAL, certainly to fly back to the base camp in time for happy hour.

Let there be a few incoming mortars at their base camps and the lifers would site each other for combat commendations and Purple Hearts if their ear were still ringing the next morning.

While the junior officers and lower ranked enlisted overwhelmingly suffered the lions share of genuine combat injuries and died in proportionately larger numbers .
Consequently producing larger numbers of combat injuries in those ranks.

Let me add that there were some conscientious and genuinely professional senior noncoms and a few officers that were willing to lead from the front. And risk the exposure of actually being in the action. These were the welcomed exception from the ranks of career soldiers

The subject at hand is how is the VA functioning and what is the compensation for disabled vets.
The length of service in these recent wars has little to do with the severity of injury and the need for treatment or the need for long term medical support.

Granted the career soldier has put in the time to earn Long term benefits. And I'm glad we can provide these benefits to them.

How ever those injured in service for our country deserve the the care they need regardless of time in service. Remember this is injured or disabled vets we are talking about.

Richard

You must of misunderstood my comments.
All service related health issues the VA is required to deal with.... as it should. If you were 'wounded' etc. then you should have lifetime care for that issue.
My comments were directed at other than service related VA use by soldiers that did not serve a full career.....the VA is not required, nor was it set up/funded to handle, ALL health care issues for every veteran for life...and that is what is happening in large measure today and why the VA has crappy service for Vets with valid service related health issues.
You sound like an RVN era serviceman...haven't heard the remf angst since we went to a professional Army.
BTW, I was a buck Sgt. 11B squad leader in RVN in the 25th ID. Not all field soldiers were draftee's btw. The majority of the KIA on the wall were volunteer's. Go to the park services dept. and check the stats...that draftee's were the most KIA's is an urban myth.

[cairns]

Fint has always maintained that the answer to ineffective government is more government. More people, more taxes more, more, more.

Yet not once has he advocated for more accountability.

Why is that? Because he works for the government. He has a vested personal interest in ensuring that bureaucracies grow and grow ever more involved in our lives and take more of our money while providing less in service. He makes more. And he has to do less.

Please note he avoided addressing the tenets of the article. He did that because they're true and he can't address them. The employees who rigged the books weren't punished. The whistleblowers were.

He argues instead that my brother has to wait months for a colonoscopy appointment because we don't pay enough in taxes. Not because the VA is a bloated, hideously inefficient agency dominated by entrenched bureaucrats and employees who care more about their union bloated paychecks than caring for their patients. But because we don't pay enough in taxes.

My brother often spent hours lying in feces because one of the finest military hospitals in the country (Bethesda Naval) had dozens of federal employees (not naval personnel) who wouldn't get off their asses and clean him up. That's a fact. And it's also a fact that none of them were held accountable. They were, after all, playing cards. And he was far from the only one in that ward who had to put up with- literally- that kind of sh8t. it happened every day.

The doctor who treated my brother raised cane. But she was powerless to do anything about it.

i will also add that the post operative care at the VA Hospital has been appalling- no one shows up for an appointment- the employees are incredibly rude, the place is filthy and reeks of urine or worse. And this place is, supposedly, the model for other VA hospitals. You don't sit there for hours- you can sit there half a day and then be told to go home.

I've never begrudged a dime of taxes for veterans care. i regularly donate to private veterans care facilities (but not wounded warriors).

But I am amazed and appalled when some faceless bureaucrat who knows nothing about the subject, fails to address the inefficiencies, the waste and, quite literally, the atrocities brought about by the current system says the sole answer is more money.

FWIW if anyone is looking for a truly worthy veterans group to donate to go here: http://specialops.org

A truly amazing individual who i am proud to call a friend has been part of this organization since it's beginning. it's one of the best charity outfits out there, Charity Navigator gives it four out of four.

[Reiver]

Cairns..Specops.... that is the org I give to monthly for a few reasons.
I'm not going to throw Wounded Warriors to the curb tho...they still do good work even with the overhead.
I've seen the gamut in military healthcare.....great and poor. People.
The VA should stick to it's original Charter and simply cover service related issues period. You could cut a lot of fat if that happened.

[cairns]

They're the best. Look up John Carney. I agree it's people but more of them aren't the answer. People need to be held accountable- wherever they work.

It's when I hear more taxes from a bureaucrat I want to puke. Federal bureaucracies are killing our country.

To paraphrase an article from the WSJ we're spending $598 billion on defense, slightly more in inflation-adjusted dollars than in the Reagan administration in 1987, when its defense budget peaked. But back then we had a fleet of 594 ships, 15 carriers, 35 Air Force fighter wings, 220 strategic bombers and 20 Army divisions, all with full stocks of missiles and weapons, along with adequate maintenance. Today we have a force from a third to half the size, with depleted weapons and low readiness.

Consequently there are longer and fewer deployments, and we're no where near as well prepared.

Why?

The Defense Business Board puts the number of civilian defense employees at 970,000, up several hundred thousand from the Reagan years. The board notes that roughly half of all uniformed personnel serve on staffs that spend most of their time going to meetings and responding to tasks from the hundreds of offices that have grown like mold throughout the vast Defense Department, the 17 independent Defense agencies, the nine Unified Combatant Commands, and the 250 joint task forces. This bloat has completely reversed the historic tooth-to-tail reforms that Sens. Sam Nunn and John Warner achieved in the 1980s.

More taxes my butt.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by cairns

FWIW if anyone is looking for a truly worthy veterans group to donate to go here: Special Operations Warrior Foundation |

A truly amazing individual who i am proud to call a friend has been part of this organization since it's beginning. it's one of the best charity outfits out there, Charity Navigator gives it four out of four.

Thanks for the link.

I know two folks who went to work for VA as SES and left within a year. The whole place needs to be blown up.

I have always followed your posts...my best to your brother. I know that is cold solace, but it is offered with respect.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by cairns

Fint has always maintained that the answer to ineffective government is more government. More people, more taxes more, more, more.

Yet not once has he advocated for more accountability.

Why is that? Because he works for the government. He has a vested personal interest in ensuring that bureaucracies grow and grow ever more involved in our lives and take more of our money while providing less in service. He makes more. And he has to do less.

Please note he avoided addressing the tenets of the article. He did that because they're true and he can't address them. The employees who rigged the books weren't punished. The whistleblowers were.

He argues instead that my brother has to wait months for a colonoscopy appointment because we don't pay enough in taxes. Not because the VA is a bloated, hideously inefficient agency dominated by entrenched bureaucrats and employees who care more about their union bloated paychecks than caring for their patients. But because we don't pay enough in taxes.

My brother often spent hours lying in feces because one of the finest military hospitals in the country (Bethesda Naval) had dozens of federal employees (not naval personnel) who wouldn't get off their asses and clean him up. That's a fact. And it's also a fact that none of them were held accountable. They were, after all, playing cards. And he was far from the only one in that ward who had to put up with- literally- that kind of sh8t. it happened every day.

The doctor who treated my brother raised cane. But she was powerless to do anything about it.

i will also add that the post operative care at the VA Hospital has been appalling- no one shows up for an appointment- the employees are incredibly rude, the place is filthy and reeks of urine or worse. And this place is, supposedly, the model for other VA hospitals. You don't sit there for hours- you can sit there half a day and then be told to go home.

I've never begrudged a dime of taxes for veterans care. i regularly donate to private veterans care facilities (but not wounded warriors).

But I am amazed and appalled when some faceless bureaucrat who knows nothing about the subject, fails to address the inefficiencies, the waste and, quite literally, the atrocities brought about by the current system says the sole answer is more money.

FWIW if anyone is looking for a truly worthy veterans group to donate to go here: Special Operations Warrior Foundation |

A truly amazing individual who i am proud to call a friend has been part of this organization since it's beginning. it's one of the best charity outfits out there, Charity Navigator gives it four out of four.

Cairns has always complained that anyone who works in a position that he is not qualified for is inefficient and incompetent but relies on less than factual editorials and op eds for his information and is almost 100% incorrect in almost every "fact" he posts on the topic.

That is largely because he believes he has somehow missed out on some sort of Federal government gravy train that pays much more than he makes...yet he has apparently never made the effort to attempt to qualify for the fabulous goldmine that the military or Federal service result in.

Please not that he did not address that shortage of doctors or the low pay they receive as the reason why there are not enough qualified doctors in the VA system or how he believe that waits can be shortened by cutting doctors and doctor salaries which are already at the bottom of their profession.

To claim that a doctor in a VA or any hospital is simply silly.

While I would never defend any incompetent bureaucrat, it seems silly to me that anyone with half a brain would try to blame underfunded hospitals with shortages of skilled doctors or technicians on faceless bureaucrats that work for the VA for rationing of care instead of considering that maybe having no doctors available to do routine care (like colonoscopies) might actually be the problem...or that substandard pay gets you exactly what you pay for. Substandard help and lots of vacancies. Who would work in a dirty, run down VA facility for low pay when they can go elsewhere? Cairns...why didn't you apply for a job cleaning feces off of folks right there on the spot? Pay not high enough...or did the smell bother you? VA hospitals are always looking for dedicated, qualified people...you could set the standard.

Personally, I have first hand knowledge of VA facilities....and I would not let my brother be treated in a VA Hospital if I had to pay for his care myself. They are where you send old folks to die. I am eligible and will never go to one myself.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by cairns

They're the best. Look up John Carney. I agree it's people but more of them aren't the answer. People need to be held accountable- wherever they work.

It's when I hear more taxes from a bureaucrat I want to puke. Federal bureaucracies are killing our country.

To paraphrase an article from the WSJ we're spending $598 billion on defense, slightly more in inflation-adjusted dollars than in the Reagan administration in 1987, when its defense budget peaked. But back then we had a fleet of 594 ships, 15 carriers, 35 Air Force fighter wings, 220 strategic bombers and 20 Army divisions, all with full stocks of missiles and weapons, along with adequate maintenance. Today we have a force from a third to half the size, with depleted weapons and low readiness.

Consequently there are longer and fewer deployments, and we're no where near as well prepared.

Why?



More taxes my butt.

It is pretty hard to compare a peacetime military to one that has been at war for 15 years...unless of course you believe we should go back to a draft where we can pay the military almost nothing (salaries have gone up about 40% since 2002). It has nothing to do with the military folks of Federal employees, rather, it is the model that Congress and the President have decided was the most efficient and politically acceptable way to defend the nation. I highly recommend that anyone who thinks they have a better idea to sign up to serve.

Of course, more taxes was never my recommendation, I only stated that I would be willing to pay more.

Of course, I also don't complain about relatives receiving poor care in an obviously poorly staffed facility yet don't want to pay the price for quality care either. BTW, they were even worse in the 80's...and much worse in the 70's. I watched a relative die in one in the 60's...and they were a horrible place then. No one wants to pay an extra penny for forgotten veterans. They want it to somehow come out of osmosis.

[cairns]

Was there a draft in 1980?

Have we added hundreds of thousands in bureaucrats while our forces have declined since 1980?

Do those bureaucrats actually fight and die?

Did the VA fail to punish those who allowed our veterans to languish and die on one of their hospital's secret list or not?

Did the VA punish the whistleblowers who divulged that information or not?

Did the VA's special counsel express concerns over that to the President or not?

Did you say this or not?

As far as treatment, unless you want to spend a lot more in taxes to hire more/better doctors, much of the VA will remain as it is.

You won't answer of course...much easier to imply that I'm incompetent or wish i were a federal employee or spout other idiotic BS.

isn't it?

And FWIW the Doctors at the VA are pretty darn good if not excellent. They're not the problem. The bureaucrats and employees who aren't doctors are the problem. The doctors are, along with the veterans and their families, those most frustrated at the lack of accountability. Who wants to operate in a room some lazy sloth hasn't cleaned properly? What doctor wants to file the inane paperwork or put up with red tape the bureaucrats dream up?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by cairns

Was there a draft in 1980?

Have we added hundreds of thousands in bureaucrats while our forces have declined since 1980?

Do those bureaucrats actually fight and die?

Did the VA fail to punish those who allowed our veterans to languish and die on one of their hospital's secret list or not?

Did the VA punish the whistleblowers who divulged that information or not?

Did the VA's special counsel express concerns over that to the President or not?

Did you say this or not?


You won't answer of course...much easier to imply that I'm incompetent or wish i were a federal employee or spout other idiotic BS.

isn't it?

And FWIW the Doctors at the VA are pretty darn good if not excellent. They're not the problem. The bureaucrats and employees who aren't doctors are the problem. The doctors are, along with the veterans and their families, those most frustrated at the lack of accountability. Who wants to operate in a room some lazy sloth hasn't cleaned properly? What doctor wants to file the inane paperwork or put up with red tape the bureaucrats dream up?

There was not draft in 1980, but there were plenty of folks in the service at the time who were drafted or joined to avoid the draft. I volunteered, why not you?

Nice try, but there are actually far less federal employees now than under Regan while both the population and Federal responsibilities have increased drastically. In fact, the reason that we have been able to reduce the number of military so dramatically is because Feds have taken over much of the non combat work (logistical tail) that they did not do in the 80's.

Yes, Feds and federal contractors do fight and die. Both domestically and overseas.

There was no secret list that caused anyone to die.

Whistleblowers are protected against retaliation by law. That doesn't mean they are above other rules/laws.

That is exactly what I posted. What is your point?

I won't answer what?

Exactly how do you know the "bureaucrats and employees who aren't doctors and work at the VA are the problem"? Are you a doctor? Are you really an expert on organizational leadership, human resources, the Federal government or Healthcare administration or are you just pulling it out of your rectum like everything else?

Most inane paperwork is required by law...and a direct result of your elected officials responding to whiners (like you) who believe they understand exactly how any organization should work, regardless of their lack of knowledge or experience in the field (paperwork is a big complaint by military and private sector doctors as well).