Le Mans wins. Bulletproof reliability. Audi dominates Le Mans. Yet Audi is ......

[sugarwood]

List of 24 Hours of Le Mans winners - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know virtually nothing about racing history, but am assuming Le Mans results has some impact on public perception of brands that translates into retail sales. (Otherwise, why would they bother?)

Jaguar dominated the 50s, and Ferarri dominated the early 60s. Did Le Mans help to cement their legendary reputations in that era?
Ford dominated in the late 60s, and maybe this gave credibility to the entire American muscle car era?
Porsche dominated from the mid 70s to mid 80s, and this must have been part of why Porsche dominated the bedroom poster market of that era?

So, it seems Le Mans results cements the legendary brand, even decades after the marquee has been eclipsed.

Here is my question. Audi has utterly crushed Le Mans like no other manufacturer in the entire history of Le Mans.
Audi has won 13 of the last 15 years. No one even comes close to this dynastic caliber of absolute unadulterated domination.
Audi should be hailed as the greatest sports car manufacturer of all time. The Jack Nicklaus. The Michael Jordan. The Wayne Gretzky. The Ted Williams.

The entire spirit of Le Mans is that of forging a reputation of bulletproof reliable high performance.
Yet, all I ever hear about Audi is that they are a maintenance nightmare, and that it is suicide to own an Audi out of warranty. What gives?

[Aragorn]

A lot of the success of Audi in endurance racing is down to one team and their dominance.

Joest Racing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[porsche4life]

The other thing is that Audi's dominate car is a prototype, so you can't go buy one! Porsche wins with the 911s so that helps them sell!

However, I ignore all the audi is junk Hype. I want an S8 very badly!

[sand_man]

From Wiki (I know...don't trust everything you read on the interweb):

[porsche4life]

This year will be one to watch. Audi is gunning hard for another, but now with Porsche back in the game, and out for blood can they keep their current string alive?

[island911]

In this ever-demanding governmental standards car market, ,making money on new car sales is tough. Making money on servicing cars ... that's billed out at ~$140/hr (on book times + marked up parts).

So, notice that Audi (among others) builds fantastical shops for the as-planned high thru-put. (cash cow supported by whatever marketing narrative that says that they are great engineering)

[LeeH]

Camry Loses CR Recommended Status, Audi Among Most Reliable Brands

"But Audi, which has shown steady improvement in vehicle reliability during recent years, moved up four places this year to finish fourth overall—the top European manufacturer in the survey. Three Audis, the A6 sedan, Q7 SUV and Allroad wagon, have “much better than average” reliability. Volvo jumped 13 places to seventh. GMC emerged as the top domestic brand, finishing ninth—three places higher than last year. Moreover, every model from Audi, GMC, and Volvo, for which CR has data, earned an average or better reliability score."

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by island911

In this ever-demanding governmental standards car market, ,making money on new car sales is tough. Making money on servicing cars ... that's billed out at ~$140/hr (on book times + marked up parts).

So, notice that Audi (among others) builds fantastical shops for the as-planned high thru-put. (cash cow supported by whatever marketing narrative that says that they are great engineering)

The new Audi service center by UW in Seattle takes up an entire city block!

[island911]

And the new Audi service on the other side of the lake makes Bruce Wayne's batcave look positively quaint and cramped.

[MRM]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

The entire spirit of Le Mans is that of forging a reputation of bulletproof reliable high performance.
Yet, all I ever hear about Audi is that they are a maintenance nightmare, and that it is suicide to own an Audi out of warranty. What gives?

Audi is a maintenance nightmare and it is (financial) suicide to own one out of warranty if you can't do a lot of your own work on it. That's why you hear so many complaints about Audi's reliability and cost to own. As much as I loved mine, and I'll never have a car that fast again unless I get a 996 Turbo, I'll never own another Audi as long as I live.

In recent years there have been changes to the top class of prototypes at Le Mans so that most car manufacturers don't even bother to compete. Several years Audi was the only entry in the top class. One year I think there was danger that no one was going to race in the top class until Audi came up with three cars. The trophy doesn't mean much if no one competes for it.

Besides, there's not much interest in road racing in the US anymore and race car technology is so divorced from daily driver car technology that even NASCAR wins don't drive sales of new cars. It wasn't long ago that Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday was a truism. I can remember when car manufacturers seriously competed versions of their street cars in NASCAR and the public loved the competition between manufacturers as part of the show. Now I don't think half the race fans in any version of the sport can name the manufacturers of the main race teams.

[gtc]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

However, I ignore all the audi is junk Hype. I want an S8 very badly!

I was a skeptic also, until a friend loaned me one of his Audis. (that he owns more than one should tell you enough right there...)

What they say is true. All of it. And more.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by MRM

Besides, there's not much interest in road racing in the US anymore and race car technology is so divorced from daily driver car technology that even NASCAR wins don't drive sales of new cars. It wasn't long ago that Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday was a truism. I can remember when car manufacturers seriously competed versions of their street cars in NASCAR and the public loved the competition between manufacturers as part of the show. Now I don't think half the race fans in any version of the sport can name the manufacturers of the main race teams.

Approx. which decade did competition cars stop being anything like the retail cars they represented? 1970s?

Even as a kid in the 80s, I felt the NASCAR cars were nothing like street cars. You could see their fake shells getting easily ripped off, so they simply resembled the body shape. But, even as a 14 year old kid, I would not have been fooled by the NASCAR "Camaro" thinking it had anything to do with the local dealer selling Camaros. This is why I have never understood, at least in my lifetime, why race results would have anything to do with new car sales. It seems as silly as buying a Tesla b/c Elon also happened to build a SpaceX rocket that reached space.

[dennis in se pa]

Hell even Peugeot wins if they spend enough money. Hyundai could win if they wanted to. It's all about the money. I read that Ford spent $200 million in 1960's money to beat Ferrari. It is all BS and it's bad for you!
My take on street Audis is that they are not well made. I have never had the desire to have one.

[Flieger]

Audi dominated essentially the modern era. Porsche has wins in many eras, ergo Porsche is really the best at Le Mans. The 956 had dominance like the R8. So did the 917 but the rulemakers regulated them out. Once you get to the top and have built such a team it makes it easier (so long as you have the money) to keep winning. Porsche has had to rebuild.

[javadog]

What you hear about production Audis is largely bull****, as most of the people with that opinion have owned few Audis, or even none at all, and often they are the second or third owner. I've probably owned more Audis than anybody else here and my experience has been pretty good. I've even owned a few that had exactly zero problems of any kind.

People tend to forget that any manufacturer can build a car with problems. They all have issues of one sort or another. Those of us that have been in the car business and spent much time in the service end of the business don't get very excited about these gems of Internet wisdom. Anything made by man can and will have the occasional problem.

JR

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by javadog

What you hear about production Audis is largely bull****, as most of the people with that opinion have owned few Audis, or even none at all, and often they are the second or third owner. I've probably owned more Audis than anybody else here and my experience has been pretty good. I've even owned a few that had exactly zero problems of any kind.

People tend to forget that any manufacturer can build a car with problems. They all have issues of one sort or another. Those of us that have been in the car business and spent much time in the service end of the business don't get very excited about these gems of Internet wisdom. Anything made by man can and will have the occasional problem.

JR

You were lucky
I purchased new Audis between 1986 and 2004
1986 4000CS - great car no trouble, traded for
1990 90CS -great car no trouble
1990 V8Q basically good car, brakes were replaced under warranty, irregular temporary trans failure warnings that could never be nailed down, I kept this a long time
1991 20vt - great car destroyed @5k mi by a drunk driver that cam across 4 lanes of traffic to hit me head on, I saw him coming and was off the right side of the road on the grass, the sfety devices did their job
2000 S4 great car but there were so many turbos issues on these that I traded it for a
2004 S4 biggest piece of sh** I have ever owned in the 4 years I owned it it was in the show for 2 days to 2mo at a time every 6mo for the same issues. When the warranty expired Audi refused to cover the repairs, I sued them and forced them to take the car back

During all the time I owned these cars all purchased at the same dealership, They did all maintenance, I provided oil to them which was supposed to be included, not once was I offered a rebate partial or full for this. Audi and the dealership lost a customer on that one

The OP's issue however is not limited to Audi, I have noticed ridiculously low prices on 4 yr old BMW, Mercedes etc. All because all of the modern cars electronics and complicated mechanical systems are potential nightmares. When they work no one thinks about them, when they don't getting them fixed ain't always easy or cheap.

I talk to shop owners all over, the almost universal feeling is that they don't or can't work on the newest models. Due to the cost of training and diagnostic equipment

Then there are specialty cars like a beautiful AMG that I looked at recently, when an owner finds that a replacement rotor car run to $2k he balks at routine maintenance, the car is then driven into the ground and becomes worth pennies on the dollar.

[javadog]

It sounds like most of your Audis were good ones, too. Some of your issues sound like problems with the dealership, more than the car. Every problem has a fix, don't blame the car if the technician can't figure it out.

As you point out, all modern cars are too complex, most manufacturers and dealers charge too much for parts and service. A lot of this was caused by the manufacturers and really driven by the buying habits of the public. The roots of that go back 30 years.

[KNS]

Originally Posted by dennis in se pa

Hell even Peugeot wins if they spend enough money. Hyundai could win if they wanted to. It's all about the money. I read that Ford spent $200 million in 1960's money to beat Ferrari. It is all BS and it's bad for you!
My take on street Audis is that they are not well made. I have never had the desire to have one.

Almost. Toyota has desperately tried to win the top spot at Le Mans over the years having spent hundreds of millions in their pursuit. Luck has a little to do with it - ironically, Mazda won the LMP1 class on their second or third try.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by javadog

It sounds like most of your Audis were good ones, too. Some of your issues sound like problems with the dealership, more than the car. Every problem has a fix, don't blame the car if the technician can't figure it out.

As you point out, all modern cars are too complex, most manufacturers and dealers charge too much for parts and service. A lot of this was caused by the manufacturers and really driven by the buying habits of the public. The roots of that go back 30 years.

All it takes is one, combined w/ a dealer and parent company that won't stand by their expensive product.

The brake issue almost came down to a Lawsuit, that was bad enough, refusing to credit the oil the didn't have to use was just rude, the last S4 issue was unforgivable. As far as I am concerned they should be out of business, rather than luring more suckers in.

Here's a contrasting experience of a good friend that bought and Acura, the car ran flawlessly for 6 years, well out of the warranty period. Transmissions failed. Acura took the car back replaced the transmission w/i a week w/ no argument, debate or coercion on the owners parts, no charge.

Now that's a Company that I would want to deal w/, I have found Toyota to be similarly inclined.

[javadog]

I've gotten free work on Audis after the warranty period. Then I've seen Lexus unable to fix problems on a car they sold and unwilling to cover the costs of their repeated failures to figure it out.

It boils down to an individual somewhere in the food chain makimg a decision. Sometimes they make the right one, some times not.