Going Back to the Round Ball...

[Jeff Higgins]

I've been hunting with the muzzle loading rifle since I built my first one, a .54 caliber Thompson/Center "Hawken", from a kit back when I was only 18 years old. Back then, it was a purely pragmatic exercise to extend my hunting season. There were no in-lines back then, and the T/C was widely regarded as the "best" (if certainly not the most authentic) rifle available. The end result was, I guess, somewhat predictable - the experience planted the seed of interest in not just muzzle loaders, but antique arms of all persuasions.

The one thing I always thought had to be "modernized" about the old front stuffers was what looks to be the rather anemic ballistics of the round ball. While I have fired thousands of them just for fun, or in primitive rifle matches, I only very briefly hunted with them before I went back to the "Maxi Ball" or some other such elongated bullet.

Now I found myself, after having veered over into the black powder cartridge rifle niche (both for hunting and competition), embracing both the single shot and the lever gun, down to only two muzzle loaders left in the house. Of course I kept the T/C, being the first one I built, and I kept a .50 caliber flintlock Dixie Tennessee Mountain rifle just to have a representative example of that style of rifle.

So, I have now duly rectified that situation with the purchase of a Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .54 caliber. This (unlike the T/C) is a relatively faithful copy of Sam and Jake's rifle they produced in St. Louis so long ago. I opted for the slow twist (66"), suitable for the round ball. I'll leave the big heavy bullets to the T/C.



The listed maximum load for this rifle is 110 grains of FFg behind the patched round ball. My T/C will take 120 grains behind the Maxi Ball, for a good deal more power. I actually shoot the Lyman Plains Bullet in preference to the T/C bullet because it's even heavier - 450 grains vs. 430. The round ball is, for comparison, only 230 grains.

Left to right is the round ball, T/C Maxi, and Lyman Plains:



I know I've chosen to severely handicap myself with this approach, but that's o.k. I could really care less if I ever shoot anything ever again, so I can wait for my shot. I just feel the need to do this "the right way", and experience a little more realistically just what is was like to hunt with these rifles. I'm looking forward to it.

[Baz]

Roundball?

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

.

Is the Lyman Plains similar to the Civil War era Minie? Heavens how I'd hate being hit with that!!

[HardDrive]

I don't want to highjack the thread, but I've had terrible corrosion issues with my TC. I'm going to have to replace the hammer. I'm using Pyrodex Select. I clear the gun very well after shooting (scrub it with soap and water and dry it), and put a light coat of oil on it. I have been keeping it in a carry case. Could the tiny amount of residue in the case be enough to cause corrosion?

[John Rogers]

We have some other shooters that use substitutes such as Pyrodex at our range in San Diego and they all have corrosion issues. I use only Goex FFG and if not careful I get a film of corrosion in the barrels also. In the past year or so I have been doing the following after shooting. I clean at the range with several wet patches of Balistol then several dry ones. At home I use the "three part cleaner" I.E. alcohol, Murphy's Oil Soap and Hydrogen Peroxide and then dry the barrel with several patches. I swab the bore down with bullet lube/Vaseline mix and then stand the rifle in the safe muzzle down, no case or anything. Some of our shooters also use Bore Butter and some use Remoil also called Remington Gun Oil and swab the bore well and store muzzle down.

A couple of the old timers use water only, boiling hot no less and the flush the bore until the water comes out clean then dry with patches. Wait a bit they say until you can hold the barrel but NOT cooled off and then oil it with Remoil. They make a point of not letting the barrel cool off completely. That is also taken from 1860's Army rifle instructions.

[id10t]

I'd be tempted to go the other direction and build/buy a 31 or 36 caliber squirrel rifle.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by john rogers

A couple of the old timers use water only, boiling hot no less and the flush the bore until the water comes out clean then dry with patches. Wait a bit they say until you can hold the barrel but NOT cooled off and then oil it with Remoil. They make a point of not letting the barrel cool off completely. That is also taken from 1860's Army rifle instructions.

Yup, you want enough heat to steam off any moisture left ...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

Is the Lyman Plains similar to the Civil War era Minie? Heavens how I'd hate being hit with that!!

Not at all. The Minie is less than bore diameter (to facilitate loading in a heavily fouled bore) and has a hollow base, like an airgun pellet, so that it upsets upon firing to fill the grooves in the barrel. The Plains bullet is bore diameter for the bottom three driving bands, then groove diameter for the top driving band. Plus, it's solid, with no hollow base. It relies on a pretty heavy charge to obturate it enough so that the bottom driving bands fill out the grooves in the bore.

As far as cleaning, I have never had any kind of a corrosion problem. I clean with the hottest tap water I can draw and heat the barrel thoroughly. I then dry it and run a single patch wet with Hoppe's #9 down the bore and call it good. Exterior parts get wiped down with Hoppe's as well.

HardDrive, storing any firearm in a case will eventually cause it to corrode, even smokeless powder arms. They have to be left out to "breathe". Standing them in a safe qualifies.

I have never used anything but genuine black powder. Everyone I know who has ever deigned to try Pyrodex has had problems with corrosion. It's neither as accurate nor as consistent as black powder and it's considerably harder to light. It will not work in a flintlock; there is not enough ignition heat to get it to go. The only real "advantages" are shipping and storage, since it is not a class A explosive like black powder. Other than that, it's an inferior propellant in every respect.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

HardDrive, storing any firearm in a case will eventually cause it to corrode, even smokeless powder arms. They have to be left out to "breathe". Standing them in a safe qualifies.

I didn't know that!! oh shee-it!! Time to get them out and let them breathe.

[John Rogers]

We have some shooters that are using original "muskets" that are made in some sort of brown colored barrel material and they are original flintlocks from the 1840's or so and have no pitting or corrosion in or on the barrels. One was owned by a great great great grand father and he used it and cleaned it as noted above. He moved west I was told in ox pulled wagons, shot a few Indians (sorry everyone but that is how it was told) and passed it on. Made his own round balls, about 69 or 70 caliber, made their own patches, own lube from buffalo fat and boiling water to clean after firing. The guns look like they were made a year or two ago, amazing.

Make sure to pull the barrel off and clean and oil the barrel where it is in the barrel channel or better yet make the barrel float so it only is tight down at the wedges as I have with mine. Also rub a bit of Linseed Oil in the barrel too.

I was hoping Jeff would chime in on how he cleans after black powder shooting?

[Jeff Higgins]

I guess I kind of glossed over my cleaning methods above, so here's a little more detail.

For muzzle loaders with removable barrels, I dunk the breech end in a cut off bleach bottle full of hot tap water. I then pump that water in and out of it with the cleaning rod and jag fitted with a tight patch. I start with the nipple in place to provide some more resistance to water flow, so I can get more pressure and a better swirling action down in the breech area on the downstroke. I then remove the nipple to get more flow. Once it's clean and the barrel is good and hot, I dry it with a couple of patches down the bore and a towel for the outside. I then run a really wet patch with Hoppe's #9 on it down the bore, and wipe the entire outside of the barrel down with one as well. That's about it.

For muzzle loaders with fixed barrels, I plug the vent hole or nipple (I remove the lock first) and pour the hot water in the barrel with a funnel. I then start the cleaning rod/jag/patch and remove the plug, and ram as fast as possible to get that swirling action going in the breech. I do that until the patches and water come out clean, the barrel is hot, and then finish up with the #9.

Breech loaders and revolvers get cleaned just like modern firearms; I just start with water instead of solvent. Two or three wet patches down the bore and through each chamber in the cylinder do it. Then they get dried and get the #9 treatment like the muzzle loaders.

A great alternative to the #9 is plain old WD40. I hose down the outside pretty liberally, spray a bunch down the bore and onto a patch, then work it into the bore.

Again, I have never had a gun rust when cleaned in this manner. I think the heat helps with the muzzle loaders in drying out the breech area, but is unnecessary in the breech loaders with no "water traps". This has worked for me for 40 years.

[aigel]

I use bear oil to grease my blackpowder guns. I hate cleaning them (^^^), so I never shoot them, unless I go muzzle loader hunting. Which in my state is not giving you much of an edge in terms of tags / zones etc.

G

[Jeff Higgins]

Muzzle loading hunting seasons in Washington well and truly suck. I first got into it when it was offered as a "bonus" season, along with archery, that gave us more time in the field. Granted, we still only got one deer per year, but we had more time to go find it. Plus, muzzle loading and archery seasons allowed any deer or elk.

That all changed in the late '80's, when our game department decided to make us choose one or the other. No more hunting all three seasons. That was fine, at first, because muzzle loader and archery seasons still allowed any deer (or elk). They also started sooner, had special units, and ran longer.

Not so anymore. Muzzle loader seasons are now the shortest of the three (muzzle loader, archery, modern). They now have the same antler restrictions as modern firearms seasons. There are only a smattering of units that even open for muzzle loader anymore. The modern firearms lobby has been enormously successful in limiting muzzle loading seasons, claiming they had an adverse affect upon modern firearms seasons. It's hardly worth it anymore.

[Jeff Higgins]

O.k., that said, I got out to the range with the new rifle today. In summary, it's going to need some work...

The front sight was over twice as tall as needed. I did a lot of filing... Getting it on paper at 100 yards, it was shooting 6-8" "groups", if you can call them that. On the plus side, it kept loading quite easily, with no need to wipe between shots. Which was likely part of the problem.

I was using .530" diameter round balls and .015" thick patches. Patches were lubed with the old T/C Maxi lube for some of them, and with the Natural Lube 1000+ for the other batch. Lube didn't seem to make any difference.

I was only using 80 grains of FFg at first, stepping up to 90 grains when it was clear it wasn't grouping with 80. That helped a lot. I ran out of daylight, but next time I'll go up to 100, or even 110 grains. The problem is, I don't want to turn this into some roaring, bucking monster - I already have plenty of those. It's really pleasant to shoot right now with the lighter charges.

The ease of loading points to another potential area for improvement; I might have to try a tighter ball and patch combination. Maybe a .535" ball with the same patch, or a thicker patch, or both. I just hate to do that and wind up with a rifle that needs to be wiped between every shot.

Ideally, I could wind up with a lighter charge behind a loose fitting, easy to load ball and patch. Unfortunately, it seldom seems to work out that way. Tighter ball and patch combinations, with charges heavy enough to obturate the ball, are what seems to make most muzzle loaders really go. Maybe I'll get lucky... we'll see...

[John Rogers]

In Major Roberts' book on the Cap Lock Rifle, he notes starting powder loads as follows, up to 45 caliber one and a half the bore diameter for powder load and 45 and over he recommends double the bore diameter. For my round ball guns which are all 50 cal except one (58 cal under hammer) I use 80 grains out to 50 yards. Over that I use 100 grains of FFG and the ball and patch are just tight enough to have to work a bit to get the ball down the barrel. For the 58 caliber under hammer I use 90 grains all the time although I did try 110 grains of FFG and noted no difference in accuracy.

In your case, how did the patches look after a couple shots? Did you try wiping between shots? With all my guns I have to wipe between shots although I did try not doing it and accuracy was terrible. I also use Bore Butter on the pillow ticking home made patches although spit works just about as good.

[aigel]

Interesting - my brief experience with inline muzzle loader and sabot bullets is that more powder shoots straighter. I worked myself up to 110 grain, IIRC.

The CA hunting seasons sound exactly like what you describe, Jeff. Maybe they were better some day, not sure. I bought my muzzle loader for out of state hunts I did, where it helped with seasons otherwise unavailable. In CA it never seemed to buy much.

G

[vash]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

I didn't know that!! oh shee-it!! Time to get them out and let them breathe.

Carry cases are for the carrying part. The interiors trap moisture. Breathe? Maybe.

The make and sell awesome "socks" that have impregnated fabric (silicon?) that are great for storage and dust protection that don't encourage rust. A great compromise.


Sent via Jedi mind trick.

[74-911]

A timely thread it is. I recently decided to dust off the arsenal and see if I remember how to load and shoot them as it has been at least 25 years since I fired any of them. I was having a problem with the cylinder stop on the revolver but with some advice from our resident gunsmith Dave and a new hammer it is now operable.

Now in the process of locating some FFG and FFFg black powder and a range and we will see how it goes. Has the world of black power ever changed though. In-line rifles, pellets, sabots, Pyrodex powders, etc. but I think I will stick with the old school stuff.

Bought the 1851 Navy in 1974 from Centennial Arms for 39.95. Made by Euroarms Brescia.
Bought the .44 cal. flintlock pistol kit also from Centennial in 1974 for 35$ IIRC.
Picked up the T/C Hawken .50 cal. flintlock kit at a garage sale in early 80's for $75. The seller open the box, messed around a bit filing on the brass castings and decided it was going to be a lot more work then he envisioned so to the garage sale it went.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by 74-911

Has the world of black power ever changed though. In-line rifles, pellets, sabots, Pyrodex powders, etc.

Yup. The "gamesmen" have taken it over, at least to a degree.

Much of the renaissance of muzzle loading has been engendered by the bonus, or at least alternative hunting seasons offered in most states. Rules and regulations vary widely from state to state, reflecting for the most part the level of knowledgeable input that went into the writing of said regulations.

There are states that simply require "muzzle loaders" and don't get a lot more detailed than that. In these states, we see all manner of modern contrivance designed to meet the letter, if not the intent, of these regulations. Other states get far more detailed and specific in their regulations which, as we have seen elsewhere in our modern world, gets to be ever more important. It's all about "what 'is' is"...

Nothing like seeing modern muzzle loader hunters taking the field with stainless steel, plastic stocked, scoped, shot gun (209) primered, sealed breech, plastic sabot/jacketed pistol bullet shooting muzzle loaders that shoot everything but black powder. They adhere to the letter of the law, but have completely lost the spirit of it.

This seems to be the currently most profitable niche in the hobby. All attention seems to be focussed on this modern (not so) "primitive" hunter. There remains, however, a pretty hard core "traditionalist" segment that just won't go away. Folks who are attracted to the hobby as a means to learn about, and maybe even live (at least during hunting season) a bit of our past.

Originally Posted by 74-911

but I think I will stick with the old school stuff.

Good on you. Many of us have made this decision. Lots of different reasons for doing so. It certainly makes things a bit harder, but most don't seem to mind.

[74-911]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

............. Lots of different reasons for doing so. It certainly makes things a bit harder, but most don't seem to mind.

Well, to paraphrase Col. Kilgore: " I love the smell of black powder smoke in the morning...... it smells like victory"....