Commercial Archtectural design/services cost

[Nickshu]

Hi Guys, I need some advice here. I am part of a partnership with another doctor. We are building a new office on an empty lot we bought last year. Basically two offices that share a common wall but otherwise separate condo-ized units. Total SF of 8000 with one side being 4500sf and the other side being 3500sf.

We met with one architect so far. Total architectural services estimate was $142,000. This includes grounds design (parking lot, landscaping, etc). This seems like a lot...since you guys know everything I figured I'd get some advice. I have meetings setup with three other architects next week. This guy was our first choice b/c he's the most experienced with medical/dental offices. I was expecting maybe $75,000 in cost but this seems pretty high. Any architects here who can comment if this is in the ballpark?

Here's the breakdown from the estimate:
Fees
Fixed Fees as Follows:
Architecture
Core and Shell $ 42,000.00
General Dental Office (Tenant Finish and Interior Design) $ 23,500.00
Periodontist Office (Tenant Finish and Interior Design) $ 18,500.00
Bidding and Negotiation $ 2,500.00
Structural Engineering $ 9,775.00
Add Option for 2,000 square foot basement $ 2,875.00 add
Mechanical Engineering $ 14,550.00 *
Electrical Engineering $ 14,375.00 **

** Includes one Site visit during construction phase. Additional visits will be charged $ 575.00 per visit.
Mechanical Design:
Sedated Surgery $ 2,750.00 add
Piped Medical Gas (per gas/per tenant) $ 550.00 add ea.

Add $13,000 for land planning/design for the grounds

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Sending you a PM...

[unclebilly]

How long is this going to take?

A decent professional engineer is worth at least $200/hr.

Is there 200 hours of engineering in this project? It sounds like there could be.

[jcommin]

My rule of thumb: architect costs: 5% - 7% of total build cost.

[jcommin]

I re-read this again:

8,000 sq ft for $75K - I don't think so: that's less than $100 sq ft


The good news is - the proposal is detailed.

Don't panic - get your quotes.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by jcommin

I re-read this again:

8,000 sq ft for $75K - I don't think so: that's less than $100 sq ft.

Actually $75k is less than $10/sf. Still, $9-$10/sf for total architectural design/services is a bit high IMO. On medium/large scale commercial stuff, it's more common to see arch. fees charged as a percentage of building costs. For a fairly simple medical office build out, I would expect something in the neighborhood of 5-8% of total build cost. For complex build-outs (specialized plumbing for dental, multiple ops, etc.), maybe kick it up to 10%.

It really depends on the nature and complexity of the project. If this is going to be an uber-fancy space @ $1.6MM ($200/sf build cost), then $142k is in the ball park I'd say (but still a bit on the high side @ 9%). However, if this is closer to (or less than) an $800k build-out ($100/sf), then $142k is way high (for an $800k project, that would be like 18% for architectural...ridiculous).

Obviously things vary by geographic region/market, but I'd be getting a few bids for sure.

You might see if you can find a commercial builder with an in-house design/architect team. That should keep costs down a bit. YMMV...

[rusnak]

I would use a specialist firm like Schein or something on the equipment, FF&E may be either an architect or an interior designer. I would go design build on the office shell. I use a civil engineer on the utility plan, grading plan, survey staking, site plan/ CUP.

We are spending less than $80,000 on a 7,000 sf for the design build architect. Civil probably less than $40K.

You guys must be getting the doctor price.

[Googam]

As a Commercial real estate developer, I've been down this road many times & spent most of career doing medical office buildings. Meet with as many Design/Build contractors as you can stand. Tell them what you want are what you are trying to build. Based on experience, they should have a pretty good idea to begin with. Pick the one you feel the most comfortable with. They will have architects, mechanical contractors & engineers they work with. These guys will supply design services as part of their bid based on the architects design. Have your equipment supplier layout the various rooms, gas locations, plumbing, cabinetry & specialty services. The various firms will do their bids & spec drawings based on those. An architect can stamp these. You can have your contractor bid as many of these services as you want, within reason & the tolerance of the builder. The contractor should get paid on draws, based on work accomplished, he pays everyone else. It requires a fair amount of attention & involvement, but you'll know what you're getting & what you're paying for.

[Rtrorkt]

have been doing medical architecture for over 40 years. reasonable MoB fee structure is 6% to 8% of hard cost. If there is medical equipment that requires coordination, then there will be additional cost. Most likely the vendor should handle with your architect locating the equipment and making sure utility connections/capacity are there. Biggest fail in medical design is not accommodating the equipment and not adequately calculating heat load from equipment, people, pc's etc. Be sure you list all of the equipment you will have, since everything generates heat and there is nothing worse than a hot medical office. The smaller the project, the higher the percent fee.

If your wives will be involved from an interior design stand point then I triple my fees since my experience tells me lots of meetings and lots of changes.

Question is who are you designing for? You or your patients? Suggest strongly that your architect be able to help with the patient experience since your quality scores will become more important as the quality revolution takes hold

[SCadaddle]

An orthodontist in my neck of the woods has quite the layout of an open space with signed guitars and gold records on the wall (Joe Walsh would approve). Check it out here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIYYCdGF7vY

[Holger]

Originally Posted by SCadaddle

An orthodontist in my neck of the woods has quite the layout of an open space with signed guitars and gold records on the wall (Joe Walsh would approve). Check it out here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIYYCdGF7vY

Yuck, I would leave that one immideately!
It looks filthy.



And I hate open space offices/workplaces.

[Nickshu]

So I guess this estimate would be in range, on the high side but comes it at about 8% of the anticipated build cost of $1.7-2m for the building. Thanks guys! Three more architects to meet with this Friday all lined up back to back, one hour each. Wish me luck!

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Nickshu

.......Add $13,000 for land planning/design for the grounds

I don't see where there is any Civil Engineering (land survey, grade topology both existing and proposed, utilities plan, water retention, parking layout, site lighting etc....) included unless they are calling it "land planning".

Is this site in some sparsely located area with little regulatory regulations regarding water retention, or possibly on an urban site which allows you to dump rain/storm water directly into the storm water system?

Around here Civil Engineering is a big cost to developing land, a stack of two dozen sheets at a minimum, which makes smaller scale development cost prohibitive.

The approval process is also highly politicized around here, not only planning department approval, but city council approval prior to that and with public hearings, neighborhood group presentations and all sorts of nonsense. Only after all that will the building department review a set of architectural plans.

These plans (in my state) at the same time need to be sent to the state for approval of some medical procedures/facilities and or if in food service/restaurant services under the guise of "public health".

They gave you the "Doctor's Price" unless they are some renowned design firm providing you with real architecture and not just some benign builder's building.

They gave you the doctor's price, unless they are including all the Civil Engineering I previously listed.

Again, I'm assuming no re-zoning involved, exemptions or variances being sought and so forth.

[rusnak]

Rezoning is not an issue if you feel that you will get staff support for an environmental assessment or CUP. I say that becaue it's the EA that will cause you the headaches and that is where the conditions are attached to the approvals.

I agree with Kach that he got the Doctor's Price, but the land entitlements are not too bad if you hire someone with experience. You may get that total cost down.

I also agree that you have no idea yet of your costs. I suspect they will be much, much higher than you are thinking.

Here is a page from a brochure that I made a few years ago for office pads w completed shells that I was going to develop. When the economy blew up in 2007 or so, we put that project on hold. It looks like we might be re-starting it in 2017.

Note that this is for a design build project. You identify your costs much earlier in design build, and can develop to a number. You also can modify parts of your plans such as exterior detailing, parking lot lighting, etc a lot easier that way. If your architect sucks, then try to get subs that play nice, exp. electrical contractor.