How do you explain to someone the advantage of manual gearbox ?
 

Disclaimer: My daily driver is an automatic. I have no issue with automatic and most days, I prefer it.
Also, I consider a manual stick shift to be in the same category as PDK. Both allow manual control of the gears. So, for the purposes of this thread, stick shift = PDK.

A friend of mine keeps sending me ads of very cheap $3500 944's for sale. Invariably, they are automatics. I'm no car expert, but I don't see it... buying an old automatic P-car.
At that point, you're getting the downside of Euro repair costs, without the upside of a gearbox to optimize HP.
Normally, a muscle powerplant with gobs of torque may reduce the need for a gearbox, but the 944 is 150hp 4-cyl, so you'd need to keep RPM's high for spirited driving, right?
I personally would prefer a manual Tercel over an automatic 944, b/c I can downshift before turns, not after.

He is very obstinate about learning the merits of why sports cars have manual gearboxes, and does not seem to acknowledge repeated conversations about HP curves and RPMs.
Part of this, I believe, is that he has not learned anything beyond highway driving, declined to go to a DE or AX event, etc.
He only sees "cheap Porsche" and he cites a Car & Driver review of the 944 being a Top 10 car.

I suggest that Car & Driver was not reviewing an automatic 944. In one ear, out the other.
Seems he can only seems to focus on cheap price, without any regard to what he is actually buying.

For reference, this is the same guy who claimed his mid 70s land yachts can be setup to drive like a sports car, and considers a Mitsu. 3000GT a small, nimble sports car

I would stop trying to explain it to him. Let him buy the cheap auto 944 and be disappointed.

Yep, just cannot get though to some people . Not much more sluggish than an auto box 944 .

I guess I cant really pick on him though, I have an auto Boxster, is there any thing more girly ?

For some people it's an inconvenience and they'll never understand.

We just drove 4 hours one way to Chicago to get a 6 speed manual Jeep Renegade. There were only 2-3 within 500 miles of us........really don't want a slushbox.

If you have to explain it, he won't understand. Move on.

Point out to him that a torque converter from those days operates with the efficiency of a slipping clutch a good part of the time.
Keep it simple.

Best
Les

The resale value should be enough to convince him.

There's a reason they are so cheap. They are dogs.

rjp

I was focused on RPM control, but you're saying there is a loss of power inherent in an automatic. That might be fine for a 500hp Camaro, but you can't really afford power loss at 150hp, right? It sounds like a auto 944 is a slow car, which is ironic, since you're buying a sports car. But, if his main use is driving on highways, maybe it doesn't matter, but at that point, why even bother. Just get an Escalade since it atleast has better A/C and a TV.

Manual = inexpensive maintenance (a clutch and throwout bearing every maybe once every few years) whereas automatic = expensive (replace the entire transmission every few years - so-called "transmission repair shops" don't even bother to crack then open anymore, they just R&R the whole things now)

Here is the interesting part. He test drove a 944, and loved it. He found the driving experience vastly superior to a 911. He was talking about superior weight distribution and handling, even though the test drive was exclusively highway driving, and he never remotely approach limits of traction in either car. After a lifetime of driving 6000lbs cars, I think he could not come to grips of the front end lightness of the 911. (I have yet to experience this myself, in 2 years of ownership) He also can not get past the A/C issues of the 911.

I don't believe he invests much in maintenance, so this will not be a motivator. In general, cars are mostly disposable to him. He had a late 90s Firebird that he claimed to love. One day, the coolant light came on, and he kept driving with the temp. gauge in MAX. When he got the repair bill, he promptly sold the car.

I'd rather focus on the principles behind why an automatic sports car is not worthwhile.

Auto 944s are $1,500 around here and trust me, I looked into getting one and converting it, but it's just way too much expense compared to buying one thats already a manual..

Right, but the point of this thread is how to get him to appreciate the difference between automatic and manual.
Trust me, he is never going to pay extra for a manual conversion, and probably prefers auto, if anything, b/c he doesn't know what he doesn't know.

I have a feeling the 911 isn't an option for hte poor guy. Icould make the same claim for a $300K aston martin as well.

rjp

Yes, I get that... the only argument you have is HP vs Technology. I would certainly take a new GT3 PDK because it has the HP and technology to be better than its driver, but a low HP car like a 944 with an old 80's technology transmission is like driving a mail truck. The manual will simply give you better performance out of the low HP motor and the point is, it's supposed to be a sports car not a grocery getter.

The proper argument is entertainment. A manual tranny is far more fun to drive, and sports cars are all about fun.

Would you rather play a game, or watch somebody else play?

I was pretty serious about getting a new Corvette quite a while ago, and a local Chevy dealer had no manuals on the lot. Sales dude kept trying to convince me the auto is a better car, that they can keep up or even beat a manual car in the 1/4 mile (good lesson in how not to sell cars- Make sure the customer leaves angry to another dealer).

I don't care about numbers in the brochure, I care about having fun every time I get behind the wheel. The manual tranny is more fun for me. End of story.

^^ I'm not looking for a subjective response. Another guy may think to automatic is much more fun, b/c now you can blast the radio and chug your Starbucks. Not a valid argument, and I want to stick to facts.

Yes, that is basically my argument. If it's supposed to be a sports car, why would you bother with something that is always going to be at half the HP output, as the tranny shifts at 3000?

Can't they program an auto tranny to always go to redline, instead of 3000?
That would eliminate a huge deficiency of the automatic.

Attach three bungee cords from the shift knob to the passenger-side seat belt buckle.
A few more to the center.

Tell him "those are the computer deciding when to shift".

You may be able to convince him of the difference between an automatic and a manual, but he may still prefer the automatic.

If he is just going to be cruising around on the highway an automatic may be good enough as far as sports-car-ness goes. That's not really sports car driving, after all. Leaves a hand free to wave to the girls, too (j/k)

And even an automatic 944 is a lot more sports car than the Mark IV I seem to remember him driving from that other thread. Maybe he can autocross against himself in the two cars! :)

Here ya go...........http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1456622541.jpg

I would and do think that the type of person who wants a 944 is the same type who wants a manual usually.


It's hard to be objective in any case for a 30 yo 4cyl German sports car. The objective answer is buy a miata of course.

I think auto cars usually dyno a few less whp. Though the rumor mill says 944 cluch jobs are a pita

This is great :)

An automatic transmission cannot predict what the driver wants the car to do in the next few seconds. There is an uphill sweeper going towards my house that can be taken pretty quickly, usually in third gear in my pick-up. Occasionally, it will downshift to second mid-corner, and the rear instantly breaks loose.

Sugarwood,

There is more than a grain of truth in the diagram above.
These days we have torque converters which lock up faster to minimize slippage.
The torque converter must provide some slippage when starting off so the engine does not stall, but at higher RPMs tends to provide a greater percentage of power to the gears.
The inefficiencies of the older autoboxes and torque converters are the problem unless you have great amounts of torque delivered by the engine.

A lot of the tendencies of automatics to shift at inopportune times can be worked around with some pre-planning and careful footwork, but as pointed out, a manual transmission is easier to control.

Best of luck with your friend.
Les

Modern autos are great. But an old world auto in a broken down :D old 944 would be a PITA. I particuarly like new CVT autos in Toyotas.

People forget: Simplicity is Supreme.

The more that can break, the more will break.
The T34 defeated the Tiger.
The PPSh-41 defeated the Stg44.

Repairs are not a part of his calculus. He owns 12cyl jaguars, for example.

If the guy owns 12 cylinder Jags, he does not need our input. If I was going for an automatic ''sports car'', I'd go for a C3 Corvette, with a crate engine transplant.

I suppose an automatic 944 would make a nice weekend cruiser, and would absolutely get you to the golf club on time. Stellar AC.

Exactly. Cant control the balance of the car, cant drive the car on the throttle when the trannie decides its time change gear half way through a high speed sweeper. That said, the new gen semi autos are seamless, better, faster than a driver. F1.

a porsche with an automatic is called a "morphodite" in car circles.

Might as well put a bench seat in there too...

My young kids say this about their cars that have manual transmissions.

1) None of their friends ever ask to borrow their cars
2) A manual transmission is the best form of theft determent

How a Automatic transmission works

https://youtu.be/QqTToQcb-5c

I think I will leave it as: A gearbox allows you to sustain higher RPMs, which means more horsepower, which means going faster, which is the whole point of buying a "sports car"

A manual gearbox lets the driver decide when traveling sideways over an unknown crest in a turn with bumps at life-threatening speeds.

The driver.
[i.e. the payor]
[i.e. the owner]

Manual is like a good handjob
Auto is like...

Manual better for car control compared to old torque converter autos.
Better for throttle steer and you get to heel toe match rev downshilfts.