Sewer line problem, replacement?
 

My neighbor and I have, it appears, a party sewer line. I'm told the main line is on his property and I'm on the branch line. This neighborhood was developed 100 years ago.

When I bought my house 10 years ago, a sewerscope company did the inspection and told me that my sewer line was not in great shape and might need to be replaced in the next several years. When my neighbor bought his house two years ago, his inspection company told him the same thing. Neither of us recall hearing about the party sewer line when we moved in, although it's possible we were told and don't remember. However, my former neighbor (predecessor of the current neighbor) later told me that our houses shared his sewer connection.

My neighbor has been having backup problems. I have never had any. Recently he was backed up so badly that RotoRooter was at his house until near midnight.

Today a RotoRooter supervisor visited him and said his sewer line is near failure, recommended a trenchless sewer line replacement, and also said that current code won't permit a party line, so I will be disconnected from the sewer when his line is replaced. RotoRooter's estimate for my neighbor is $6000. The supervisor's guesstimate for me is $20,000, because I'd need a whole new connection to the street.

Any thoughts?

My first question is why I have no sewage problems while my neighbor has serious ones.

My second question is whether we should get a sewerscope company, not affiliated with RotoRooter, to inspect both systems and give us another opinion. I imagine this is a no-brainer?

My third question is if it makes sense that we can't continue being on the party sewer, aiming that is indeed the case.

My fourth question is what do you all know about installing a new sewer connection. How is it done? The house grade is elevated about 8 feet above the street grade. The main stack in my basement is about 80 feet from the curb, with about 25 feet of basement slab between stack and the foundation wall closest to the street. There are some huge mature trees between stack and street. There is really no way to get heavy equipment in there to dig a trench, and I'm worried the trees will get killed in the process.

I think you should talk to your city before going any further. This most likely has been addressed before.

Get it scoped.
Absolutely. Now. A hundred bucks or two is nothing.
Get more than one opinion.

It probably doesn't matter what was "said". Or not.
The Title documents are the official legal conveyances of property with all known definitions and deficiencies.
There may be insurance to cover this (known) defect.

Current code may be for new construction only.
The existing y-pipe sewer configuration may be grandfathered.
Local conditions apply.

Personally, I would look to getting a separate street-hookup if a bunch of front yard mess is guaranteed though.
That may be expensive but would add value.

Without knowing all the details, my guess would be that the blockage in your neighbor's line is upstream of where you branch into the main line--that's why he has a problem and you don't.

Having another company scope both systems will, probably confirm his is bad, yours is failing, and the main is failing as well. After all, it's a 100 year old system.

Your third question is very important, and you need an answer from the city, not the repair company. It is common for repairs to require code upgrades but this may or may not be one of those times especially if your branch and the main to the sewer are still working.

Your fourth question will likely depend on where, on your property, your line branches over to your neighbor. The difficulty in laying a new line is probably why a 20k estimate was given.

Whatever you do, get a second or third estimate for a new sewer connection.

Skimmed the city website. Non-conforming party sewers must be "abandoned" by the homeowner if the city says there is a public sewer line available, which there is. No mention of grandfathering, that's something I'll look into.

Found a two-man scoping company that only does that - no plumbing, no sewer repair/install,excavation. Seems that might avoid a conflict of interest/upsell. Also found a couple others who do drain cleaning, but not anything more.

Talked to my neighbor, we're going to get the whole system scoped and get some opinions about whether sewer replacement is needed.

It is irritating (for me) that I'm not having any issues but may have to spend a bunch of money because his nanny was flushing baby wipes down the toilet (strictly against his instructions to her). Okay, I realize it isn't as simple as that. Just venting.

Can they run a sleeve in there to prolong the life of your main sewer? They last a long time if done properly and only if possible. This was there's no separate sewer line, but that depends on your city code. I can only think that the roots are busting through your clay or cast iron pipes.

Reason for your neighbor's back up is because the clog is up stream from where your pipe enters the main. Getting a camera in there is always my recommendation, but for a 100 year old house with big trees, you got some issues with roots or perhaps collapsed pipes.

I hate those roto-rooter guys. From my experience, the only thing they are good at is unclogging siht and they know siht only flows downhill, and that they rape ya when it comes to paying for service outside of drain unclogging service, that's it. Get a local plumber and have him bid it out and see what he thinks. With a camera, you know exactly what's going on and how to proceed. Make sure they can and are insured and qualify to dig out the street. That's where the big bucks is spend.

A second opinion is definitely warranted given the cost. Hell, kick in $2000 bucks to his bill to keep your $20k one away.

definately have it scoped. they can tell you so much good info before you commit one way or the other.

like how deep that thing is. IMHO, that is the cost. deep trenches. $$.

i paid $250 to have a camera run down the sewer. it showed me my line was bad in the shallow parts. where it dove down, deep where CALosha would take notice, it was cherry. i felt good enough to release the plumber kraken. it was done for $5000 and you cant believe the peace of mind the day after. it was profound.

good luck!!

I replaced the sewer lateral (the line from clean out in the front garden area to the front property line just at the side walk per city code at that point city required another clean out about 20 feet) trenchless is the way to go if it works for you.

Just a thought depending where your line ties in with the neighbor maybe dig down there and trenchless to your house with a cleanout at that point and then dig trench to the street sewer. Assuming cost/code distance etc. allows it.

Probably not needed, but check valves are available for a shared system:
Determining if a Waste Backwater Valve is needed

The reason he gets the worst of the backup is simple. His sewer connection is lower than yours. Water flows to the lowest point. How do I know this? My neibours and I shared a sewer connection. His was added to my sewer line and his basement was lower than mine so when his wife and daughter would flush their sanitary products it would back up into his first.

$20K sounds excessive to run a new line to your house.

JYL- I can't answer any specific problems being many thousand miles from the issue. But what I can say, also owning a house with a 105 year old sewerage system is that it feels really, really, good to rip all that worrying old pipe out and put some modern stuff in.

Find a way to not spend the 20K for sure, but in the end, having sat there and flushed without a worry in the world is priceless to your mental health.

I just went through almost exactly the same thing about a year ago. I bought a 110 yr old house in the core area. The sewer was shared with the neighbour and the majority of the line including the street connection was on the neighbours property. We knew when buying the house ,the sewer was shared but had been assured it was in good working order .HaHa.
At closing it was (but not for long) . Turned out it was the second flooded basement in 5 years and my insurance company would not pay for a third unless we replaced our side.
We had a very big rainstorm which flooded both basements because it exceeded the capacity of the single line.(roof runoff is combined into the sanitary in the old neighbourhoods ,now needs a separate storm drain).
I had a liner company estimate close to 25k to do both sides. We ended up using the old method of a back hoe and trench. Even that came to about 10-12k. The city required a new connection at a cost of $5k from the road centre to the property line and my contractor did the rest for another $5k. I managed to keep costs down a little because my hoe operator coordinated with the city and did the actual digging at both ends as a subcontractor to the city sewer dept.
The neighbour contributed to restoring the driveway and kept the old sewer with a spot repair . He now has a single old sewer and I have a brand new sewer complete with a backflow preventer valve. The city came up with a 3k grant to me for installing a backflow valve and a sump pump for rainwater . Total cost to us both was about $12-15k with me paying most, but I also got a partial grant of 3k . Talk to your city sewer dept and get a traditional quote . The trenchless liner jobs are hugely more expensive than a dig and only save if infrastructure like driveways and fences etc are going to cost more to replace than digging. I also found out the city used to subsidize new sewer connections to eliminate shared connections when found BUT that program was ended when they started giving grants for backflow valves. Consider several opinions and talk to the city about any subsidy or maybe even who their subcontractors are . The city might also allow repair to existing without requiring complete replacement , but a new line is better and I prefer all new not a linered old drain. Good luck.
My wife is a retired realtor and asks If you weren,t told about the shared sewer do you have any legal recourse with either the seller or the agents or both?

We just went through a sewer problem. All of a sudden the toilet did not flush properly. I check the clean-out in the back yard and it was full of "water" so I called Mr. Rooter, and of course it was Sunday Morning. He his a clog in 18 feet and I was happy it was going to be cheap. BUT, he could not get the end down into the city main. There was a further blockage. We had it scoped and sure enough the connection had become broken for whatever reason, possible the numerous small earthquakes we had have in the area. No one will know for sure.

That was the bad news, the worst news is the area where they would have to dig was under my 8x12 shed. I really did not want to empty the shed, and disassemble it just to move it. They ended up retrenching the sewer from the house around the shed To get down to the main sewer they dug a 9 foot deep hole. A new saddle tap, city inspection and fill up the hole. It only cost $1,100 for the new sewer line and $300 worth on new sod. Now we can flush the toilet and take a shower!

Sorry to hear about your problems. For sure call a second company and get a camera down your line and the neighbors line.

Don't ask me how I know about Orangeburg "pipe". That a tar covered paper sewer line. That's right. Paper!!!


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Same old orange stuff was in my old septic system. Amazing it lasted as long as it did.

I wouldnt want to pay a plumber to dig, rent a machine or hire a machine operator for that work.

We had our sewer pipe line scoped about 20 years ago. It was compressed tar paper and got squeezed by the weight of the dirt above it to the point where exit was impeded. At that time it was about 40 years old guessing it was the original sewer pipe. Had the pipe replaced with pvc pipe. No issues at all since. Will likely outlive me. It seemed expensive at the time jackhammering through the concrete slab plus cost of install but as above says worry free flushing now. :)

directional drilling can do that job
without tearing up lawns or removing trees
they running gas lines that way right now in my hood

there is an old cheaper rig called a bore and jack
but they are much harder to keep near a constant grade/slope
and require a pit to put the machine in

20 k to dig a 100ft line is way over priced unless super deep or solid rock

Here are two pictures.

First is the street where the city sewer line runs. My house is about 15' behind the fence.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1460478415.jpg

This is inside my fence.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1460478474.jpg

You can see the elevation change and the trees. If I do need a new connection, I'm pretty worried about avoiding serious damage to the tree roots.

The main stack in my basement is roughly 25' from the corner of the house that is shown in the second photo.

I wonder if the new line - again, if one is needed - can come from the house toward the street, turn 90 deg, run in my side yard parallel to the street, then turn and come down the stairs down in the first photo. This would avoid as many trees as possible. My gas line runs there, though.

Edit: maybe directional drilling would solve the tree issue. Certainly seems better than trenching.

you really doNOT want bends in a sewer line
for sure NO 90*'s 4x22-1/2* if you must
flexible plastic like the gas lines their are using now
[ it come in a ten foot diameter roll ]
would be better then pvc joints for smooth curves
but maybe against local codes to put large bends in a sanitary sewer or even use flex pipe

Sewerscope next Monday. Fingers crossed.

The house hase a crawlspace underneath? Where is the point of connection? 25' in what direction? Your sewer is a bigger priority than the fence, trees, and walkway. If you can install a new line with a cleanout cover at the point where it bends 45 degrees, then that is what I'd do. But a straight shot under that sidewalk, and take out a tree or two might be the best option, depending on your point of connection. Any good plumbing co has a scope.

Going through this right now...

Neighbor is having sewer problems, I am not. My line runs under his property, then another house, then the street...

All the other homes on the street connect directly to the sewer...

To fix it, the street needs to get ripped up, the yard, the basement, etc...

$8000 for the sewer work to the sidewalk
$2000-3000 for cement work
???cost to run to the house and connect...

$11,000 proposed to fix a problem I "don't" have...

If the neighbor fixes his sewer, and I don't, then I am disconnected. Code won't allow shared lines...

Argh... Money down the toilet...

**** happens....Liners are great...if too many bends..I have seen them blow the liner from different sections of the line. They have been usings liners in Europe for quite a while.

House has a full basement, unfinished. Main stack is in basement, 25' further from the street than the corner of the house shown (in the second picture, if you go to the corner of the house, turn left, walk 25' through the foundation/basement walls, that's about the location).

The trees are important. The street is busy, and the trees provide a noise shield and privacy. Not having them would reduce my property value noticeably. So I'm very motivated to not damage them. Obviously sewage comes first but ideally both aims could be met.

So you have a 50 foot trench or so, probably 12 feet down, straight shot. Maybe another 20-30 feet to the median, so 70 feet or so depending on what side the sewer main is on? That can be dug up in a day, boarded up, backfilled the next day past the sidewalk. I'd say if you can aim for the tree clearing, bring the sewer up inside the basement, then you're golden. Should not be too bad.

You need a cleanout at every major bend in a sewer here. You might be better off to bust the unfinished basement floor and come 25 ft across it then under the wall to a trench to the street. You can probably dig a trench from there and only affect one maybe 2 trees. The city can put the new drain connection just about anywhere along the sewer.

Update...just had the city council meeting and it was voted down... Oddly, the guy with the rported sewer issue never came to speak...

It is a crappy situation......

Pop always said "Never pay a plumber to dig a hole."

You maybe want them to use a transmitter with the camera so as know the present route on your sewer line.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sewer+line+transmitter&biw=1093&bih=493&t bm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYn9C9tY zMAhUTzmMKHRInBDoQ7AkISw

or buy your own scope for the price of a couple of margaritas and tacos.


10 meter length, 6 leds, USB port into a laptop for viewing.

$20.

A99 720P 2MP 6LED 8.0mm Lens Waterproof Android/PC Endoscope Inspection Borescope Tube USB Camera 2M/5M/10M Cable with Hook Magnet Side Mirror Sale - Banggood.com

Update.

Sewer scope guy comes out. Good guy. First thing he says is, he's not going to scope my system, because if he sees I'm the guest on a party line, he has to report it to the city. Instead, he suggests just scoping my neighbor's system. So the three of us are in my neighbor's basement, watching the image from the scope, at 130 feet which is well into the street.

Verdict: cast iron pipes under the house, 6" clay to the public sewer branch. The pipes are in great condition, no damage, cracks, breaks. At the joints where the street starts, there is a lot of root intrusion, solid mass of roots with just the 2-3" openings made by the RotoRooter crew. For $350, a local hydrocutter company can clear out all the root material, completely eliminate any future backing up issues. An annual application of Root-X will keep the roots from regrowing. No, none, zero reason to replace, reline, or otherwise repair the sewer system.

We saw the branch going off to my house. Yes, we are on a party line. Still a little unclear who is the host and who is the guest. The branch connection (the "Y") is on my property, he says, but the sewer enters the street a few feet on my neighbor's side of the property line.

So neighbor and I are both happy. We'll split the cost of the hydrocutter guy. My part of the system won't be hydrocut, but I think it's okay - the connection is pretty close to my house, this not that much clay pipe on my part, there are no trees there, and I've never had any backing up problems anyway. The main root intrusion issues appear to be downstream of the connection. The reason my neighbor has problems and I don't is that my house is higher than his, so when his nanny clogs up the party line with her wipes and tampons, the backup comes out in my neighbor's basement.

The only problem will be if RotoRooter reported the party line to the city, which they sometimes do in hopes of generating business. If we do have to bring both sewers up to code, it'll cost my neighbor about $3500-4000 and me about $9000-10000.

Another update, the final one I think.

So my neighbor and I have a hydrojet cutter company come out, to cut the roots from our shared line. The guy sets his camera and hydrocutter up in my neighbor's basement, goes in the cleanout on the stack, and can't get the hydrocutter head past the "Y" in the line, there are too many turns in the line. So we got to my basement and spend an hour trying to get the cleanout plug removed. Huge pipe wrench. Sledge. PB Blaster. Torch. Cold chisel. Finally I end up drilling a line of holes in the plug and he and I managed to cold chisel out the thick brass plug. He puts his camera down my line and sees cleanouts along the run. We go outside and he uses his detector gadget to find my outside cleanout, which is buried under my side yard under a flagstone paver. Whew. Now with clear access, he videos my line all the way to the street.

Surprise.

I am not on a party line. I have my own line, mostly plastic, direct to the city line. I have no roots, no problems, nothing. I do not need a new sewer line or even a hydrojetting.

So, what is going on with my poor neighbor. The hydrojet guy talks with him. My neighbor has a "Y", it looks like he actually ties into another line, but it isn't my line. It isn't clear if there is another active line connected to that "Y" or if it is capped off. He has all the root problems earlier seen. His roots (no longer my roots!) cannot be accessed by the hydrojet head, because of all the bends in his line. So either he needs to get a cleanout installed in his yard, or they still need to figure out who he is connected to, if anyone, and find a cleanout on that line. The other line, if it is active, might belong to a second neighbor, we're not sure.

Anyway, it isn't my problem.

The hydrojet guy was on the job for 4 hours. Their charge is $260/hour, plus $170 for camera, plus $20 for truck roll. That's $1,240.

By now he and I have spent four hours working together, chatting about Porsches and VWs, my wife has been bringing us cookies and water, etc. He cuts the bill and charges me $435. I pay it, and am not going to ask my neighbor to pay his half, although he is willing to do so. I figure, he's got a bigger problem, I don't have a problem, so I'll do the neighborly thing.

I think my neighbor will be able to solve his sewage problem, maybe with the cooperation of the second neighbor. But I'm in the clear.

Hooray! for you jyl.
I feel bad for your neighbor been there myself every other yr. with rooter rotor guy.
Of course no were near as bad as your neighbors sewer line.
Did the trenchless replacement 2yrs. ago.
All the best. Hope things work out for your neighbor.

Great news. You're a stand-up guy.

I found the city website that shows the city sewer lines in the street. Then I found a way to make it show the individual houses' connections. Not sure how reliable this info is, I notice many houses have no connection shown, I imagine there are no records from when these houses were built 100 years ago (105 for mine) so the info gets updated only as work is reported to the city. But anyway it shows my house and my neighbor's house as each being connected directly, and separately from each other, to the city line. Kind of wish I'd found this website before, it might have made some of the troubleshooting more efficient.

That scene in the Matrix where Neo is bending backwards dodging slo-mo bullets. You're "Neo"!

Nice dodge!!


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Nice move paying the scope guy. That was very classy.

The as-builts from turn of the 19th century might be, as expected, a bit unreliable.

Just had potential sewer line scoped. Clean bill of health.

Very cool piece of equipment.


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