Really? I've never killed anyone and I've been around guns all my life. I know a lot of people who have been killed by cars - right - the car did it, not the drunk or distracted driver. Just like guns kill people, eh?

A pair of gloves! No, seriously...they are of cheezy type with open fingertips...you know, "pro" style and i never tried them...it's just cool to have them there :-)

Ohh...and various junk, 10mm bolt that can be used as emergency plug for emission plugs, one oil-return tube rubber ring, air-pressure meter, dozen of burned CD's with my favorite music, a pen, cellphone charger , few screws and a dead fly.

David,

Have you ever been shot at? It sorta changes your life and you realize all of a sudden that life is not forever and can be changed in a moments notice from the gang banger standing next to you. I do not plan on being unarmed when and if it happens the next time! The last time was almost 11 years ago but it still comes back from time to time to make me realize that you are either a victim or armed.

You have your right to walk around and be the next victim. I have the right to hopefully save your (and my) bacon if I am in the area with a weapon. Cars kill more people in this country every year than weapons of any sort... period!

Want to soapbox, then we lose 30,000 people a year due to doctors making stupid mistakes (ex wife did heart transplants, been there and done that) and even that is more than gun shot victims. We lose more people every year due to tobacco than died in the Vietnam war... and so on. The gun is not responsible here, its someone's stupidity.

I was offered several jobs last year when I was laid off due to the WTC disaster. Several of the job offers were in the Socialist Republic of California. Would not entertain any of the offers at any salary range as I do not trust my life to the law enforcement there and they want you to rely on them for everything.

Statistics are just out for England and Australia. Both have had a raise in crime in the last few years. Why? The govt took the public's weapons away, pledging that "we will keep you safe" ... Now they are seeing in realtime just how safe they are considering that the criminals still have guns and are using them. I do not choose to join the group of victims anytime soon...

Joe

I'm curious here about folks who carry guns for security vs. sport/target shooting. What happened in life that made you feel so vunerable?

Ditto. Been shot at, twice.

rjp

Hi Joe,

Believe it or not I think the "Socialist Republic of California" must be doing a pretty good job protecting my bacon cause I've never been shot at. On top of that I don't even know anyone who has been shot at outside a war. None of the people I socialize with carry, much less own, a gun. Sure I could drum up some "business" with some wrong attitude at the wrong time but that would be my fault not the Police department. They can't protect people from being stupid.

Joe, you might feel safer carrying a gun, but are you really? Do you carry it on your person 24/7...cause that's the exact time something bad generally happens. What about the stuff you don't even see coming, D.C. area sniper, hit from behind, car jacking. I fail to see how a gun will help in situations where you are caught off guard...or do you live your life in wait and practice quick draw scenarios?

Hey not to change the subject but I went to your website...nice jet. You have my dream job dude. On the flip side I'm all for arming commercial airline pilots since you are the captain/cop in that situation.

David

I'm curious...what were the circumstances around being shot at?

Practice, Absolutely!
 

As I said before I don't carry 24/7, nor do I think I need to. But I do practice regularly. And yes do practice quick draw and double taps. My Police friends and books on self defense I've read have recommended many of these techniques. If you choose to own a weapon, know how to use it. Safely, efficiently, prudently. These are not toys, but instruments that can cause death. Anyone who chooses to exercise their right of ownership should take the responsibility to be educated.
With great power comes great responsibility.
Having the power to take a life from more than arm's length is a large, and horrible power. Never to be taken lightly or played with.
It appears that the participants in this thread on both sides understand this. Safety is the major concern for both sides, let's not loose sight of that. We may differ in approach, but we are actually all being protectors.
My .02

Nostatic,

Mostly while playing military. You have no idea how large a 20mm or 37mm round, followed by tracers, looks like when its coming up at you and tracking your every move. The times on the ground were in Central America, in the early 80's... do not ask... but I know the sound of a AK by heart.

I flew a ambulance aircraft for years, based out of Berlin with worldwide ops. Did a lot into the Gulf area as well as Bosnia and Yugoslavia. The red cross on the tail makes for a very nice target while moving... Was based in Riyadh as well for one tour.

David,

Its a dream job, and I get paid for doing something I would do for free. That said, have been laid off three times in the past 10 years and will be 50 in three weeks, so being out of work is not fun. Have been with McDonnell Douglas, Boeing and Bombardier, as well as a couple of airlines and they all are as stable as mud when it comes to long term employment for flight crews. Am trying the private sector now and hope to retire here!

Re the arming of the crew on a jet... funny how the Israeli airline El Al never gets hijacked! They have a sky marshal on board every flight and the flight crew is armed to boot. There is a guard with a machine gun guarding the airplane 24/7 at the airport as well. The kooks have learned that they will either die or waste away in prison and so have moved on to blowing themselves up.

joe

Joe, those don't exactly sound like "typical" street experiences. I can understand wanting to be armed under those circumstances, but here at home? I know LA is bad, but I don't think we're in "centro" mode yet. Then again, espanol is the primary language in the city...

Well-

1) 1/2 drunk at a party in my youth, by a couple of pissed off kids with stolen pieces, shooting at things in the house. Stolen guns, not supposed to have them to begin with.

2) I spent a short amount of time shacking up in a duplex on Rainier Ave ( a slum area, don't ask why) next to section 8 housing, new years eve, years ago. A*hole immigriant in the next building with a 22 LR steps out and starts shooting at our bottles around us. Problem was, bottle was about 2 feet right where I was sitting. We were noisy. Wasn't supposed to have them again.

I have 2 friends who have been executed in robberies, (2 guys, adults) who may have had a fighting chance had they been armed.

Have another friend killed in a car jacking just after Christmas, 92. They wanted his wheels, and he didn't have a gun.

A zillion stories of relatives involved in disputes in parent's native country where a firearm could've saved your ass. Or did.

I know someone will retort "well if they banned them...."

All I can say is, --too late. Pandora's box has been opened. They're everywhere. Legislation alone will not remove them from our posession. And if they attempt to succeed, the powers that want to see this country fail will smuggle them in.

If you honestly feel you're safe, well good for you. If you passed me on the street, you wouldn't know that I was carrying. I'm responsible, I pay my taxes, and I don't look for trouble. YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW I CARRIED. But, like in the case of my friend Ty, what happens if trouble finds me? Can I reasonably expect my tax dollars (paying a cop) to protect me? It's my ass out there, and the only person who loses is me, so why shouln't I protect it? It's ignorant to think the government is obligated to protect you, even more ignorant to count on human morality for your welfare.

DISCLAIMER: I don't necessiarly agree with this author's end conclustion, but, it's an interesting slant -

http://www.jpfo.org/Survive.htm

rjp

(who has been trained for years on how to handle a firearm)

Just the regular stuff, registration, evidence of insurance, flashlight, several vials of incurable disease spores, thermoneuclear stuff, you know, the usual.

And a corkscrew.:cool:

I carry two flashlights, one (Larger Mag-Lite style) under the seat, A few terry towels, a small hand-held UHF radio with extra batteries, a can of deodorant, a chamois and some small, lightweight binoculars and a whole shirt-load of CDs.

Mice droppings:eek:

Is that for wine, or for pulling the heart out of some drug crazed maniac that tried to jack you?

Just remember, if you're going to eat his heart, be sure to cook it medium...enough to kill the pathogens you infected him with, but not so overcooked that you get colon cancer.

Errr...don't you think that your military background indoctrinates you a bit? Have you ever considered a posibility that there would be far less "gang bangers" around if carrying a gun would be unlawfull?

Did you care to compare those (rising) numbers with american ones? :)


Disclaimer:

And yeah, i happend to be a bosnian, and yes , i have been shot at, and no...i don't think our (euro) cities would be much safer with more liberal gun laws, and yes, everyone is entitled to opinion and no , i've never been in US and don't know the situation there, and yes, there are some particular...(should I say "mentality") differences between people on this side of the pond and other...and as far as i can see even between yourselves, and yes, you probably saved our collective ass in WWII (which i'm probably going to be reminded about quite soon), and yes, you bombed serbs and saved bosnians, thanx.

... but in the end...it seems that liberal gun-laws make things worse in long term.



P.S.
And how the heck every gun-thread degenerate so quickly into mud-slinging contest? Someone, lock this one and throw it into Off-topic please.

What responsibility our founding father's placed on us as citizens and individuals! Didn't they write down that an individual's right to self-defence was granted to him/her, not by any laws men could come up with, but by by their Creator? When they wrote that, do you really believe they were thinking, "Honey, would you dial 9-1-1 please?"

Glove-box:
Targa Top unlocking handle
owner's manual

Nightstand drawer:
Colt 45...I don't see it as my "right", I see it more as my responsibilty.

If one is happy and comfortable being unarmed 24/7 that is fine.

My problem starts when I am told I can't be. That the powers that be will protect me and my family and then consistently fail to do so. But lord help you if you try to defend yourself.

Years ago I always carried (legally) a concealed handgun, to the point that I felt undressed without one. (like Richard I was always on my best most polite behaviour when carrying). My life and circumstances are very different today and I very rarely feel the need to carry. But I choose to keep the option. Perhaps my outlook is coloured by having been exposed to some of the nastier elements, however, I would hate to find myself unarmed when I needed to be.

Right you are, Doc! I've discovered that corkscrew wounds baffle most homicide detectives and also that they provide an opening perfect for regular, bread stuffing. So, I'm always hoping for Baked Gansta Heart for dinna'. Sadly, we don't get much violent crime in my neck of the woods. I'm almost sure that I'd still have my car even if I had left the keys in the ignition each night for the past three years.

So mostly, I use the corkscrew to open wine bottles. The corkscrew and the condoms is a maintenance/repair kit all by itself.

Would love to pack "my little friend" but the grief it can cause here in California is not worth it.

Would pack some rubbers, but marriage kills the need for that.

Maglight is too big, won't fit.

I do have a soft socket for the wheels, but considering how lousy my lug nuts look, not sure why I even have that. All it does is roll back and forth and irritate the hell out of me. Which reminds me, time to clean out the damn thing. It will give me something to do during the holidays.............

Packets of hot sauce
 

That guy a couple weeks back who drank packets of Taco Bell hot sauce to stay alive while stranded in his car, inspired me tremendously.

He also set his interior on fire. Problem is I don't have enough interior. I think mine would last fifteen minutes, not fifteen days...or whatever it was for him.

When I was a kid living in Colorado I kept candles and candy bars for the required nutrition if I were to be stranded, as for keeping warm................... speeding tickets......... enough fuel there to last me till the next millenium.

Goran,

You live in Sweden, a "civilized" country where a person walked up and shot and killed your Prime Minister with a .357, so please do not take aim at me in my country. How did this person get a weapon pray tell? He was supposedly mentally disturbed, a person who is not allowed to have weapons in Sweden I believe???

Live in America for a while (I have spent more time in Denmark and Sweden than most Americans BTW) and then you can take a shot at me like above. I can buy a firearm illegally in most of Europe and they are one of the most closely regulated parts of the world, so banning is not the solution.

Every country who has made owning a gun illegal has seen the crime rate increase, and yet you want to tell me that our having a gun for our own protection (and you do not even live in this country) will make everyone safer? I will agree as long as you come up with a plan that rids each and every criminal of THEIR WEAPONS FIRST and you personally guarantee the safety of myself and my family, then you can have mine.

You are the one who is doing the slinging right now, so look in the mirror, then ask about slinging.

Joe

Stone,

Put your maglight between the seat and the door sill. Works on both sides of the car and very nice in case someone gets difficult. Have a 3 cell on the left and 4 cell on the right.

Used to set a fire extinguisher on top of the same area until I got a seat type mount.

Joe

Ah yes, that's right. Note to self:

NEVER GO TO AMERICA

Victor,

Add to list:

New Zealand, Japan, England, Germany, France, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Austria, and so on... China is one of the few places where you are reasonably safe, yet the criminals there are still armed and not afraid to use them. China kills them as punishment every month...

No where on the world is completely safe, but if you are unarmed and the criminal is armed, then you will be a victim shortly.

If you wish, I have a elderly friend in Australia who was savagely beaten to within a inch of his life a year ago. Had he a weapon in his hand and been able to defend himself and his wife, the young punk would be a memory and he would not be paralysed on half of his body. His attacker has not gone to court even now... Look up the name Paul Hawkins on the internet and see what you come up with. He will be 100% ever again...

A victim is a victim is a victim and you can act like any country in the world is safe until some crackpot does something stupid. At least in America the public can and will stand up and defend themselves.

Joe

Joe,

Too late. I spent 10 years in Germany and travelled to Austria, Italy, Switzerland, France and England a fair bit. I met a lot of people, went out lots. Got in trouble occasionally.

Never saw a gun, gun fight, gun toting or gun-otherwise. Although this kid in our apartment block blew himself and his brother up trying to convert an ornamental canon into a pistol. But he was 13 with the mentality of an 8 year old.

And I will be happily spending January and February '03 with my family catching up with relatives in Germany.

Have a safe festive season and I hope for your sake that you never have to look another person in the eye and pull the trigger.

Joe, you edited your post. So I need to add that gun laws are such over here that my owning one would be a criminal offence in the first place. So my choices in weaponry are somewhat limited.

Victor,

Hope no one ever has to do what you mention, but would do it gladly to save my life or the life of an innocent person.

I will be in Sydney Australia in January. Will have a good Aussie beer if you have a good German beer in turn! What part of Germany? Lived in Berlin, Osnabruck and was also based in Stuttgart for a while.

Tchuss,

Joe

Joe,

Of all places for German Beer, I will be in Munich most of the time. Ha ha. Can't wait. I worked there for four years and spent a good part of my childhood in Baden-Baden (sort of near Stuttgart) and a couple of small towns near Freiburg called Herbolzheim and Kenzingen. My mother is from that neck of the woods.

MMMM, beer...

Joe, I live in the most dangerous, populated city in the first country on your list.
I wouldn't even know what a gun looked like if hadn't watched the Persuaders on tele as a kid.

Whatever your reason for thinking how you do, that seems like a mighty large Pandora's box to open. I'm really glad we're not at that level, that's all I can say.

Mind you, the dude who first split the atom- Rutherford- was born here in New Zealand. I guess he's got a bit to answer for now.

Joe, i'm not taking shots at you...just merely pointing to the facts:

Firearm-homicide rate per capita per year is substantially (understatement) lower in those countries you named compared to U.S....even if they are increasing (according to you). Unfortunately, we are not talking few percents or even tens of percent here..we are talking magnitudes.

Want me to dig out actual numbers?

Here:

Germany: 381
France: 255
Canada: 165
UK: 65
Japan: 39
USA: 11127

...note a certain disparity here? Divide that with number of citizens and you'll get per capita figure. Numbers won't get much happier tough. :(

Now, i wish you a happy X-mas to you and all your family, and if that gun really helps you to keep them away from harm so be it, but i really doubt that that our figures would get better if we loosened our firearm-laws.

Cheers.

P.S.
And yes, Palme was killed in a open street by a madman...while walking on the sidewalk, going to the movies with his wife, side with side with ordinary people and without any bodyguards (he didn't find them necessary and nobody found it weird up till then)...

No Glove = No Love,

:eek: But "open" on the ends? Dangerous, Goran!?!
So dont "try" them, unless the "Pro" carries spares...... ? :D

Err...i was talking things that you put on the hands...you know...bicycle-gloves....stuff that Mel Gibson had on his hands during opening scenes of Mad Max I....:p :p :D

I tend to stay out of these discussions. But what the hell? It's the Holiday season! ;)

I find it hard to imagine a PP reader currently resident in the US rationalizing the "carrying a weapon makes me safer" strategy within the context of the other risks we all face on a daily basis. The simple act of driving ANY car kills 4-times as many people each year. How many of us enjoy those spirited drives in the country we so love to document on this site? And, how many drive their p-cars home after a beer or two with the boys?

A gun wouldn't have made me any safer pumping gas while the DC snipers were on the loose. Nor would it have helped my cousin 15 years ago, shot point blank and killed AFTER complying with the thieve's demand to hand over his wallet.

Funny thing with risk analysis - you have to look at the problem from both angles. The solution can be more dangerous than the original threat.

How often do we read of a child being killed while playing with a parent's gun? Or a spouse being killed by their drunk "better half"? What percentage of shooting victims (good and bad guys) killed within single family residences in the US each year are shot by their own weapon or one owned by a member of their immediate family? I don't know, but would like to see that number.

I have a friend that discovered her first husband was having an affair. She told me the story years later. Something in the news that day had us talking about gun control. She was for it. Why? "I was hurt and very angry", she said. "If I'd had a gun available, I would have killed him".

FWIW...

People rob you in your car because they want money to buy drugs. I say, take the middle man out of the picture ;)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/Jam359.jpg

.....just kidding :)

That's funny! I have a cousin, a native born Melbourne, (actually Geelong) resident. She has, so far, survived every trip here. Amazing.

Joe - can you direct me to the source of this information?

Thanks
Mark

pwd72s,

You where doing well until you typed the word "Geelong". By comparison America would be like taking a trip to Willie Wonkers Chocolate Factory for her. All jokes aside, I spent a couple of formative years hanging out there at night time in the late 80's. Those kids don't need guns to be dangerous.

Mark...the stat to research is what cops call "hot" burglaries...where the perps break into a home, not caring whether the residents are there or not, because the perps know the residents are not going to be armed. You'll laugh if I cite the NRA as a source, but I'm sure the NRA could name their sources.
National Rifle Association, 11250 Waples Mill Road, Fairfax, VA 22030-9400. Bottom line is that pedators flourish when they know their victims can't fight back. The same predators become more cautious when they know they may have to pay a severe price for their activity...

Joe - I've spent a bit of time in Osnabruck, great place, good beer and some beautiful women. Especially my one at the time.

Guns. I tend to not back out of a fight if I believe I'm in the right. Hence I get involved in a brawl about once a year. I've already had two this year so I'm over quota already :)

I once pulled a rifle out of the car to prevent getting beaten up by a bunch of very large ethnic types, and if they didn't skid to a halt then run, I guess I would have shot them in self defence. If I was allowed too, I'd rather like to have a 9mm S&W in the glove box.

Our government is trying to pass a law where if the police shoot someone they can't be prosecuted, whatever the circumstances. I think Joe Average citizen needs to even the playing field and if in doubt shoot first. If you are curious, I'm not a deliquent, I'm a 43 year old male from private school type background.

Yup, me too. LA, SF, NY, ......... Loved your country! Had a ball! :D
You blokes just couldn't get enough of my Aussie accent - "say something, say something ........ again?!" :confused: ;)