Really Victor? Let's not get too snobbish here...my cousin's hubby is upper class there...so is she. Her daughter is what I'd call a lawyer, her son is winding up medical school, following in his grandfather's footsteps. If cousin Lynne, currently an administrative level bureaucrat, was a wild child, like myself, her daddy sure didn't know about it. Her mother, my dad's sister, would have been in the dark as well...hell, I'm the black sheep of the clan, and proud of it!

Mark,

Here you go...

____________________________________________
Britain, Australia top U.S. in violent crime Rates Down Under increase despite strict gun-control measures

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902
__________________________________________


Australia's Gun Ban, Crime & Video Tape

Between 1980-1995, Australia's firearm-related death rate was cut nearly in half and its firearm-related homicide rate nearly by two-thirds. (The former decreased 46%, from 4.8 deaths per 100,000 population to 2.6; the latter decreased 63%, from eight per 100,000 to three). In 1995, the annual number of firearm-related deaths fell to its lowest point in the 16-year period.

Despite this real progress over a decade and a half, the demented acts of a lone gunman in Port Arthur, Tasmania, on a Sunday in April 1996 were used to launch a massive campaign against law-abiding Australian gun owners. Rather than acknowledging one man's insanity, opportunistic gun control activists and scared politicians rushed to blame "loose gun laws." It didn't matter that those laws required any Tasmanian who wanted to own a firearm or even an air rifle to pass a gun handling course and carry a photo-bearing gun license that had to be produced prior to the purchase of any firearm or ammunition. The end result for all Australians was a government turn-in scheme and the follow-on destruction of more than 640,000 hunting rifles and shotguns.

Ban supporters, including gun prohibitionists in the U.S., are actively promoting the legislation's alleged crime-fighting benefits. Crime statistics, however, contradict them. For example, from 1997-1998, assaults and armed robberies increased in all Australian states. Armed robberies increased from 42% of all robberies in 1997 to 46% in 1998. The number of total violent crimes and the numbers of all individual categories of violent crime, with the exception of murder, increased. In addition, unlawful entries rose 3.3% from 421,569 in 1997 to 435,670 in 1998.

The violent crime statistics shown below were retrieved on March 27, 2000, from the Australia Bureau of Statistics website:

VIOLENT CRIME
1997
1998
TREND

Murder
321
284
-11.5%

Attempted Murder
318
382
+20.1%

Manslaughter
39
49
+25.6%

Assault
124,500
132,967
+6.8%

Sexual Assault
14,353
14,568
+1.5%

Kidnaping/abduction
562
662
+17.8%

Armed Robbery
9,054
10,850
+19.8%

Unarmed Robbery
12,251
12,928
+5.5%

TOTAL
161,398
172,690
+7.0%

http://www.nra.org/frame.cfm?title=NRA%20Institute%20for%20Legislativ e%20Action&url=http://www.nraila.org

Sad to see that without a way to defend themselves, every catagory except one was over and above the past years. The criminals forgot to turn in their weapons and the law abiding citizens were instantly turned into victims. Carrying a knife to a gunfight just does not work, no matter where in the world you are located.


Joe

And I suppose that you guys did nothing to exacerbate the situation? Not that your behavior justifies someone shooting, but having been a drunk youth on many an occasion, I know how those situations go.

hmmm....sounds like part of my "lost years". I lived in section 8 apartments in Santee for awhile. The one time I was almost shot I was in that apartment, and I was somewhat involved in illegal and nefarious goings on...

Tragic, but the reality is they might *not* have had a fighting chance if they were armed.

again, tragic, but I don't know that having a gun in the glove compartment would have changed things. Thug comes up to the window with a gun and sees the driver reach for the glove compartment, what do you think the thug would do?
and a zillion stories in the US of kids accidentally killing other kids, family members mistakenly killing other friends or family, or loved ones killing each other in a fit of rage/passion because there was a gun around.

One of the great horrors of history, but I don't think that you'd get the same opinion from all survivors. Nice touch by the pro-gun parties to use the holocaust as a rallying cry. The anti-gun can counter with pictures of kids with their heads blown off. It's all bad...

As long as you don't shoot me or my family by accident (or on purpose), you may keep you gun :)

pwd72s,

My email came across wrong. I'm no snob. I have family in and around Geelong too and have a blast every time we hit the town. You can stir up enough trouble to last a whole weekend by chucking one lap in the 911. And of course, it's right next to on of the greatest stretches of road in the world.

Hello -

That's the problem, the kids are playing for keeps nowadays.

All I'm trying to illustrate is that, in regards to the offenders in my experiences, they, by law weren't supposed to have them in the first place. I know I didn't help the situation, but just where in the code of law is a verbal altercation justification to wield a weapon? The first scenario I noted was when I was 17 -to them and myself, firearms have been banned. My neighbor didn't even have a resident ailen card - let alone a permit. Gun bans only affect the law - abiding.

Rainier Ave was a weird place to live - 6 mos. watching the property, it was one of pop's rentals and it was being rennovated. I figured rent free, what the heck. No, nothing nefarious going on, (sorry to let y'all down -I just can't stand drugs, let alone peddle them.) As of the all the killings, who knows? All I know is that it wound up the way it did and the guys were in fact, unarmed. As of why it happened, it's still a mystery, another act of "random" violence.

IMHO, personal safety isn't something that should be analyzed by averages and statistics, we each have our own level of comfort with what we do and what we know, and who we're with. In respect to my specific situation, there is no one except my roommate, who is also a CWP holder and trained weapons guy. On the other hand, if I had a couple of 5 year olds running around the place that would be different, bet your a$$ I would rid myself of extra guns and parts. There would be nothing, around to have. I'd make sure of that. There's nothing to say about accidental killings. Guess your real punishment is living with your conscience. Now that, would be hell.

And again, IMHO more gun bans are worthless, it's too late., the genie is out of the bottle.

Oh well, this topic comes up so infrequently. It's fun listening to the other side now and then. I respect everyone's differences. If you don't like, I won't talk about it.

And I'm thankful at least that no one has said "It can't happen here" Not like my family did during WWII.

cheers.

rjp

Peace, Victor...I got a bit too hot there. Hell, my Oz cousin can't understand my defense of our 2nd amendment either...any more than I can understand her views on some things down there...

Thanks Joe.

I'm not getting into a debate about gun controls but suffice to say

NRA.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

and statistics don't really indicate whether guns are being used.

As an Aussie (40years old) I've never confronted a gun situation and neither have any of my friends or family. Maybe me and my mates have been too busy surfing to get involved:p

My Taekwondo training taught me first and formost to be aware of situations and avoid getting yourself involved and to walk away as much as possible.

I'd be curious to know who here carries a firearm has actually used in successfully in a self protection situation where you could not predict that you were going to need a weapon. I don't mean in a situation where you could have been accused of being partly an aggressor in the situation you found yourself.

I've been in a few fights in the surf where I should have kept my mouth shut, so I would be an aggressor in these situations (for which I regret with a little wisdom in later years). If a situation generated from this involving a gun then I feel would have been partly responsible.

Interested to hear your thoughts/experience.

Cheers
Mark

And yet another one-

Myself (12 at the time), Mom, and Dad coming home, dad miscalculates a lane change and cuts off a p/u with two guys inside. They follow us 1 mi. home. Dad pulls into driveway, guys are at the end of the driveway yelling at him, threats of course, racial too. Dad draws 1911 and says "step on the property and you're all done."

And no, he ignored them all the way till they came to the house.

surprise, surprise, they leave.

After he moved to Vegas, he was accosted for cash by some guys outside a local grocery store late at night. All he was doing was getting milk. One quick brandish and that ended that.

A gun, was never meant as a "fix - all" to any potential woes, or a guarantee of your safety, but the odds of your survival are considerably better with it than without it. Maturity, and decency to avoid a conflict a gun will never give you, but since when did responsible gun ownership make it worse? That if you're credible, you'll take on on your own. All these arguments are assuming the worst intentions of gun owners.

I've never won the lottery either, but it doesn't mean it'll never happen.

rjp

Also, we're failing to consider (or at least as WA is concerned), the law as it sits is very explicit as of when and when you may not use your weapon, brandished or otherwise. Penalty for breaking these guidelines? Manslaughter, or worse Homicide. It's not written as a license to kill at will as some seem to think.

rjp

Mature adults do not advertise the fact that they are armed. This is especially true in Europe. I can't think of anyone I know who has a gun for defense that wants to use it.

So now the cops in NZ want to be judge AND jury? Now that, is scary.


If that passes, you might as well not have any laws, period.


rjp

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joeaksa
Stone,

Put your maglight between the seat and the door sill. Works on both sides of the car and very nice in case someone gets difficult. Have a 3 cell on the left and 4 cell on the right.

Used to set a fire extinguisher on top of the same area until I got a seat type mount.

Joe [/QUOTE

5 Cell is ideal in a car.

"Statistics are just out for England and Australia. Both have had a raise in crime in the last few years. Why? The govt took the public's weapons away, pledging that "we will keep you safe" ...


erm.... did we ever have our weapons "taken away" from us in England ? We never had them in the first place.

Some of you guys make it sound like a warzone over there in the U.S.A. I was thinking that I might want to go and live in your beautiful country one day but with that kind of gun-slinging mentality it makes me realise how lucky we are in England to be able to walk around after dark or go to a cash ATM without fearing for our safety.

I suppose the USA has always been a gung-ho kind of country - but hell - we're in the 21st century now - it ain't the wild west ! With a Gun Policy like that I'm really not surprised that you've got the second highest murder rate in the world (after South Africa)
:(

happy thoughts
 

I try to avoid these threads but they make entertaining reading.

Happy thought: :)

You are alive because someone has decided to let you live.

I am not going to say if I have a weapon or not.

regards
david 89 turbo cab

Yes, we did. Until Dunblane, when Tony jerked his knee and decided we weren't allowed handguns, even target pistols, any more. One of the reasons I moved here (that, and the weather, and VAT, and any number of other things).

"it makes me realise how lucky we are in England to be able to walk around after dark or go to a cash ATM without fearing for our safety."
No offense, but you live in deepest darkest Surrey... compared to this area, Surrey is practically a war zone. Try walking around Brixton, Tooting, Clapham, Peckham, places like that, at night. On your own. *I* certainly wouldn't. I know plenty of people who have been robbed at knifepoint in London. Bringing a gun to a knife fight is a pretty good way not to get hurt.

I was almost attacked by someone with a tyre iron in Notting Hill - if I hadn't been about 8" taller and 150lbs heavier, I'm positive he would have actually attacked me. As it was, I suggested to him that it would be an *extremely* bad idea (not in those exact words) and that was enough. A handgun and the associated training is absolutely the best form of personal defence. Hell, you aren't even allowed CS/pepper spray in the UK! I think most of the police forces are, though.

Interesting how there are no longer any armed robberies in the UK now that all handguns are banned. :rolleyes:

And the law in the UK regarding self-defence is totally ridiculous - if you shoot/kill a burglar in your own home, you can be arrested! An Englishman's home is his castle, my ass. A couple of cases in point - a farmer in a remote area had been repeatedly burgled. The police response time in that area was over half an hour. He caught a couple of people inside his house robbing him at night - he shot and killed at least one of them, using a pump-action shotgun (an illegal weapon in the UK). He was charged with, *and found guilty of :eek: * murder (the guy's name was Tony Martin, Google for it of you want to check). As far as I know, he is still in prison. Another man recently found a burglar in the house where his wife/ex-wife/girlfriend (can't remember which) and child were sleeping, armed with a crowbar, and stabbed him to death. This was thought to be excessive, and he too has been charged with either manslaughter or murder (he may have been found guilty - this case is less high-profile, so I'm not sure).

Thanks for reminding me once again why I left the UK.

edit: just thought I'd add what I have in my glove box. It used to be full of a DSP for my stereo, but I removed it. Now there's a whole in the back of the glove box, which limits what I can put in there... sometimes the case for my sunglasses. Not a handgun, because I haven't yet got the safety certificate thing I need. No need around here. I'll get round to it sooner or later.

Eion.

I lived in Balham in S.London up until last year and was never threatened, attacked or mugged and felt comfortable walking around at night. I've spent time in some pretty dark/unfriendly places (downtown Calcutta, Old Delhi, Kings Cross -Sydney, Jakarta etc...) though never in America.

In all these places I've never felt I needed a weapon. Being *aware* and avoiding nasty situations has always done it for me.

Call me naive or whatever, but unless I was actually fighting a war (whatever your definition of that is) I couldn't ever imagine wanting/needing to carry a gun. If it ever got to the point that I felt everyday life was like a battle and I needed to carry a gun to protect me and my family - I'd pack my bags and move to a place with a quality of life.

Don't flame - it's just my opinion.

btw... I agree. The laws governing protecting your body and your property in the UK are a joke. It's an opposite extreme.

Clay1G

I bet you didn't expect a thread like this - asking about Porsche glove boxes !!!!:D

Hahahaha:

Joe:

These are "top" headlines from the top of that "newssite" you quoted:

Biblical prophecies unfold
What every Christian needs to know about Israel today
--Bridges for Peace


Arafat cancels Christmas in Bethlehem?
You don't need visa to enjoy Holy Land for $29.95 this season
--WND

LAW OF THE LAND
WorldNetDaily
Hundreds rally for '10 Commandments judge'
Granite Decalogue remains, despite court deadline for removal
--WND

SPECIAL OFFER
Whistleblower for Christmas!
Get Christmas issue, 'Homeland Security' bonuses FREE when giving gift subscription
--WND

SPECIAL OFFER
'Savage Nation' – coming in January
Or, you can get it right now – signed, sealed, delivered
--WND

Err...anyone find topics somewhat peculiar? Is this "reliable" source of information? I also found quote of C. Heston saying that Columbine killings were caused by bowling :-)


I therefore lay my case ... there is no point in explaining to you that US have ten times more gun-related homicides than those countries you named. It just doesn't get trough ...
Also, you didn't seem to read more than the title of the article. They never mentioned that gun-ban occured in those two years, and murder rate between years actually decreased, Besides, trying to make useful statistics of a trend between two years is *balooney*...

Goran,

You can look all over the internet and find things like what you are looking for. The site I posted had valid news as well as various crap that anyone can find. Most adults sift through the crap and read the news, but guess you got fixated on the crap... The NY Times has valid news on the front page but also has cartoons elsewhere. Are you going to say that they are not a valid source of news?

I posted FACTS and its funny that you are not arguing with this! If you are not going after me, then I find if very interesting that you are not commenting one bit about postings from Eion, Deeks, Randy P or PWD72. The US has ten times the population of most of the other countries and is the melting pot for the world, and some of the people who move here are criminals, looking for their next meal. If you think that its "baloony" that in every catagory shown in crime in Australia was higher except one after the gun ban, then you need to go back to school and learn statistics again.

If you have a hard on for me personally, then lets take it off forum, otherwise address what the both myself and the others on the side of "having some protection" in our possession in our country. What you do in Sweden is up to you, but in MY country I will do what I am legally empowered to do, and that is carry a weapon to protect myself and my family.

I do not need to continue defending the rights that our Constitution gave us in my country. You can do as you wish in your country but until you live and work here, stop telling me what is right and wrong.

And yes, it does spend some time in the glovebox...

Joe

I don't have "a hard on" for you or anybody particular in this thread...it's just about the facts.

I'm not telling you what to do in your country, just pointing out that you shouldn't make assumtions about "my" country, gun control and crime rate...especially ignoring the facts.

However...i'm done on this topic, back to Porschetalk.

Cheers!



P.S.
Or is it spelled "boloney" ... i don't remember :) Isn't that smoked sausage as well?

If I remember my history correctly, I think we kicked a bunch of guys with red coats out of our country because we had firearms.

As for firearms in the home, I started handling rifles when I was 6 years old. The kids all knew were the gun room was and were told to stay out or else. Hell, the kids knew how to clear a weapon but mom was clueless. Later on after we moved, I had 6 long arms in my room and a 1911 in my desk with about 2000 rounds of ammo under my bed. Funny everybody in my family is still breathing, according to some ads on the TV a couple years ago my family and next door neighbors should have all been killed. Guns in the home aren't a problem when everybody's trained and respects them.

I haven't had any problems on the road, but I don't usually drive during rush hour or odd hours in the morning like my dad does. He's had to brandish the gun a couple of times(and a few time in our old neighborhood). The soccer mom trying to run him off the road and an idiot in the $50 pickup. We always had a handgun for long trips.

Oh the glovebox, a lighter, registration, title, fuses, pen, and now out of the car, in a 914

christ,

i ignored this thread, but since it was around for so long, attracting so much attention i thought i'd take a peek.

i have my opinion on the gun thing, and i have spoken with americans who feel it is their "god given right to have them". but these are just our own opinions based on our own experiences.

thats all they are.

statistics - these are what ever you (or some politcal party) want them to be, they are not factual.

crime - that will always be there, with or without guns, as long as theres criminals.

confrontation - confrontational people get into fights, i know this 'cause i have a friend that likes an argument.

victims - these are usually vulnerable people, elderly, women, kids, etc.

i do not know the reason crime has risen here, probably to do with the lack of police on the streets, and the highway.

what i do know is that we do not have a gun problem in the uk. the law didn't take the guns away. you could never carry a gun around with you. it was kept locked in a sturdy box in yer house. fer christ sake, the police have to keep the shotguns locked up in the back of their vehicles! you do not generally see coppers walking round with guns either.

in fact if you go to the airports in the uk after a major scare its really noticable when the police walk around with machine guns - not something we see often.

when i was in the states we stopped off the highway (florida) for a pee at a wash room. and the patrol offficer told us to move on when we went to rest on the grass - christ in the uk we don't have patrol officers guarding rest areas!

the point is you can be a victim of crime anywhere in the world. if you're at the wrong place at the wrong time. but imho, the odds are against it in the uk - and we have a gun ban.

btw - i didn't know that you could carry a gun in italy.

This is exactly why guns are problematic. Why in world would a soccer mom be trying to run your dad off the road? And the idiot in the pickup, is your dad doing something illegal or offensive and then use the gun as a "get out of jail free pass"? A few times in the old neighborhood? What is wrong with this picture? Most gun proponents posting here have never had to raise their gun, yet in this case, a single person did 2 times on the road and a "few" times in the old hood. Unluckly or just overly confident with gun?

Sweater914, I'm not singling out your dad here but just voicing my perception of the topic as a whole. Gun proponents are trying to convince us that guns are necessary for their very survival yet millions of us get by each day with not even a sling shot in our back pocket. If you feel the need to have a gun at home, and are willing to accept the staggering odds for a personal tragady, then by all means do it. I am very concerned about people packing guns in their cars and waving them around at people who cut them off on the road or flip the finger.

Like I read previously in this thread I believe that if a gun is around it increases the odds of a violent crime when tension flairs. I would like to see a breakdown of all gun related deaths and how they sort by category of "successful self-protection", "unarmed victim", and "accidental shooting".

Something illegal or offensive? I hope dad was trying to take out a bus stop full of people with his p/u if that's the case! On the other hand, if someone was taking swipes at me with a car, esp. over a minor and common mistake I would say they're playing for keeps. And yes, if they followed me home, came out and voiced intentions to get me, or run me over, and made a move for it, I could legally shoot them. And get away with it. And being a "gun owner" doesn't automatically make you the aggressor, what you're assuming is Mario Cuomo is right about us- we're the paranoid redneck stereotype.

Always a possibility, but do you think if you eliminate the guns, this would ever stop? I know of more people who Pack baseball bats and tire irons, and those aren't illegal - at least until you use them. Baseball bats and tire irons come out so often, it's a cliche.

What happens if you piss off a couple of guys who see you zipping around in the 911? Are you just gonna "talk it out?" Have you ever had anyone follow you around for a mistake you've made? Or perhaps been threatened by not one guy, but two guys? Ever had anyone loiter in front of your house at night for no reason, esp. if your family is inside? Now, what if you happened to be Female? Or physically disabled? Do they have as much of a chance in an altercation? And, I won't even go into hate crimes here.

Or do altercations never happen where you live?

Once again, possible. But then again, despite what the government is telling us, WE ARE RESPONSIBLE for our own actions. I don't think anyone here is against severe punishment for using a firearm in an unwarranted tension situation. But, as re - iterated before, if not a gun, maybe a bat, kitchen knife? Those are just as bad. Some unpopular law banning my firearm isn't going to stop violence if the tension flairs, nor make it any safer for the recipients. There are always other means. Accidental shootings? Tragedy, but be responsible, don't leave your gun around. I'm not trying to make light of that issue, but for chrisssake, lock up your gun if you're gonna have one. That is a part of "responsible" ownership.

rjp

The only thing he was doing wrong with the soccer mom was driving the speed limit on a two lane road, and she was doing her best NASCAR imitation. With no shoulder and no way off the road.

The old neighborhood was out in the county and response time sucked. The juvenile deliquent was a known menace to the point that the sheriffs all knew the family by name. The street next to mine had 2 guys convicted for 1st degree murder.

We had people routinely trespass through the yard(with 4 wheelers), vandalize, steal wasn't the garden spot of the world. Definitely unlucky.

The gun is a tool and can be a very fun hobby when used properly. Some people are just put in situations and conditions not necessarily of their choosing that having a firearm seems like a pertinent precaution. Even though that's the last thing the individual wants to do. We'd all like to leave our doors unlocked and keys in the ingition but that's simply not the case anymore (if it ever was).

Thanks RANDY P

Randy,

Nice posting! Well said....

Sweater,

Living in any neighborhood like that you would need to have some sort of protection! A D-6 Cat comes to mind... :)

Joe

My wife accidently cut a guy off in traffic one day. So he pulled up along side of her car, lifted a gun up in his right hand, pointed it at my wife's head, smiled at her, and then sped off. She didn't get his liscense #.

My first reaction was anger, he should be put in jail for that, for a pretty long while.

It never entered my mind that because I have a right to own pistols, that that in anyway contributed to this incident.

All I know is that what he did was ALREADY illegal, and he should go to jail for it. Could someone please explain to me how what he did should have any bearing on my right to own guns? Seems to me he's the one that broke the law. Even if he had pulled the trigger, how would that have any bearing on my right to own a pistol? The fact that I'm a redneck from TN can't be changed, but I do know the difference between right and wrong. I just don't see the correlation....2 completely different issues. What he did was one thing, How does MY right to own a gun have anything to do with his behavior? If you're saying my right to own a gun contributes to crime, I find that a lapse in logic. This country has alot of crime, buy it's done some pretty good things for the world to. And in my humbled opinion, we're still the measuring stick for freedom in the world today.

Confused
David Cate

I thought this thread was about what's in your glovebox. A majority of the above posters have their heads in another very dark place, IMO.

:)

I keep a Carbon 15 .223 in mine, I figure if I have to shoot from the car then I am probably shooting in or at another car and I want something to go through it. Of coarse I also keep a .45 1911 and a pump shotgun in the boot but im kinda like that.

I believe this detour into road rage and weapons was very nicely detailed in the movie "L.A. Story". Highly recommended veiwing.

And I'll have a half-caf-low-fat-double-mocha-frappa-latte with a twist...

Ahh...movies! I like movies!

"Bowling for Columbine" is pretty good :)

P.S. I also carry a picture of George W. Bush in my glovebox...whenever i get cut off i pull it out and use it!

A Glock 26...fit's just right.

"I thought that, uh, I'd show you around town a little bit, you know, a few kind of secret places, a kind of a cultural tour of L.A."
"That's the first fifteen minutes. Then what?"
"All right, a cynic. First stop is six blocks from here."
"Why don't we walk?"
"Walk? A walk in L.A.?"

There's something just "right" about having a German gun in a German car, don't you think? I'm shopping for a decent P-38 in 9mm.

You DO have a PPKS that was "Made in West Germany" don't you? :) Not one of those "made under license in Alabama" models...:D

Hmmm. Now I'm worried. I think my SIG may have been assembled in Exeter, NH. But I still think the parts were forged in Eckenfoerde, Germany, although SIG is an originally Swiss company. Even H&K is based here in Sterling, VA. At least I only speak German to my car.

Robert and Richard,

While I was living in Berlin, the police sold off all of their Walther PP and PPK pistols when they moved over to HK units. Flooded the market and they were going for around $40 a hit the first year or so.

We went to the military "rod and gun club" and as military members were allowed to get the pick of the litter. Some were well used, with the blueing rubbed off from being pulled out of the holster often, while others were like new... Most were German production, while some were made in France.

Got my brother a mint PPK, which had to have been used by someone at a desk. Still in the orginal box, with manual and extra mag, like new with all serial numbers matching (including the box) for $80...

After coming home I found out what they were worth. Should have bought 100 of them...

Joe

I carry most of the above (with the exception of a heater); additionally a soft-socket for fragile aluminum lug-nuts.

Handguns were banned in the UK (exception: N. Ireland).

The latest government figures show gun crime has doubled since 1997.

So much for the Snowdrop campaign, and the stupid ban that only affected sports shooters.

Sorry for the rant, but it's a subject I feel very strongly about and I'm currently snowed in.