So why haven't the big manufacturers out-Tesla'ed Tesla yet ?

[Deschodt]

this looks like an interesting project but still a hybrid of sorts:

http://jalopnik.com/mississippi-states-lightweight-subaru-brz-hybrid-is-100-1771825421


but why has no-one else released a pure electric car with decent range? Nissan has the pathetic leaf, VW the pathetic Egolf, BMW's I3 I believe has a short range too... all aforementioned struggle to get 90 miles of range. I "get" the golf limits since it's designed as normal car and there's not as much room for batteries. The leaf seems like it was a new car (?), the I3 definitely... So tesla designed a floor made of batteries, that's one advantage... Why are those guys not even close to the tesla's 300 miles? is Tesla stuffing batteries in the seats? in the door pockets ??? it does not even seem to scale on size/weight - the S is not 3 or 4 times bigger than a Leaf... Where's the leap ? I'm surprised the big manufacturers have not even tried to compete with the model S on tje pure electric/fun segment, let alone the model 3 on range or performance... It cannot be proprietary tech, Tesla has open sourced all their stuff... Do they not believe in it ?

[Gogar]

I think the big manufacturers want to make money instead.

[legion]

^This.

The other manufacturers don't get quite the subsidies (though they do get massive subsidies for electric cars) that Tesla does.

[scottmandue]

You mean like Chevrolet (Volt), Nissan (Leaf), Ford (Focus), Toyota (Prius)?

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

You mean like Chevrolet (Volt), Nissan (Leaf), Ford (Focus), Toyota (Prius)?

yes, I don't ;-) Hybrid, lame range, lame range, hybrid...

I mean pure electric - 300 mi - or at least pure E and fun. Why is T still the only game in town? Is it the room for the battery? If so I'd expect the leaf (designed as pure electric) to be at least capable of 150 mi.. but it's not... nor does it have a fun mode...


On $ good point. But if T can do it with subsidies, I'd think someone with economies of scale and manufacturing capacity like the big 3 could do it without losing $ ???

[flipper35]

As a commuter car, why does the Leaf need 150 mile range?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Big companies change direction like aircraft carriers.

New ideas and the companies that try to bring them to market are more like PT boats.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by flipper35

As a commuter car, why does the Leaf need 150 mile range?

Slap a small battery trailer on it,
Add a bit of storage or hauling capacity(lumber/4x8),
Rooftop thin-cell solar is absolutely mandatory.
Then almost any electric car would be just like a normal gas car.

It refuels while it sits in the sun.
A good thing. While the driver is busy with something else.

[Otter74]

Well, I think the sticker price of a Model S has something to do with it.

Here is a perspective on the Tesla-ness of Tesla:

https://stratechery.com/2016/its-a-tesla/

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by legion

^This.

The other manufacturers don't get quite the subsidies (though they do get massive subsidies for electric cars) that Tesla does.

Originally Posted by scottmandue

You mean like Chevrolet (Volt), Nissan (Leaf), Ford (Focus), Toyota (Prius)?

Not the individual car subsidies, the special loans and incentives to build an electric car plant.

[legion]

Tesla is similar to Ferrari, Apple, or Versace in a way: the brand is more important to many of the buyers than the product itself. It is important to be seen in one.

To some, owning a Tesla is believed to impart a kind of environmental sainthood: They are visibly better than the unwashed, polluting masses.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

I think the big motor manufacturers are being very cautious as each one doesn't want to blaze the E trail that will cost them billions rather than earn them billions before most people have accepted electric cars are viable transport.

At the moment in the UK the infrastructure is not there to support using an electric car as more than an A to B commute car so the majority of buyers are buying to be seen to be green or for the novelty value.

If the big companies want to sell electric cars to the younger generation then they need to be less conservative with the styling and make them cooling looking. A Nissan Leaf or Renault Zoe is about a boring as a car can be made to look. Tesla on the other hand and the BMW i cars are good looking cars.

I'm going to carry on driving my 20yr old 3.0ltr diesel 4x4 for at least the next 10yrs, in that time the average new electric car owner will probably be on their 3rd car and will have filled the planet with more pollution than my old smoker belges out while I chug around with a pitiful 280 mile range between stopping for 5 mins to fill up.

Someone needs to set a around the world record for an electric car, the comparison of how long it takes compared to a fossil fuel car would be very telling, at the moment my guess it wouldn't be very close as once out of USA/Europe the only charging points will be out of a normal electrical wall socket

[Deschodt]

Fair points... But my question is more technical in nature... I'm puzzled that tesla can squeeze enough battery into its car(even the small one) to make 300 mi / or make it fun and attractive to sporty cars buyers, while the big boys are peaking at 90 mi AND boring ;-) I don't think anyone ever accused the Leaf of being fun. Is the batteries 70% of the Tesla cost ? Would it be prohibitive to add 50 miles of range/fun equivalent to a Leaf/Egolf?

Is it just that the Tesla is that big and chock full of batteries in every orifice, or a different battery type, or ? I agree the leaf does not need more range as a pure commuter, but in the tesla's case you can trade the extra range for fun or greatly extend usefulness. The E-golf / Leaf provide neither.... I'm just wondering from a technical standpoint why nobody else has announced a Tesla 3 fighter yet - after the marketgasm of orders - seems to me the big manufacturers can do it for less, and tesla proved there is a market...

My sister in law bought an Egolf and I'm totally puzzled by that car (or the leaf). Range is real life 85 miles, roundtrip, aka useless for anything but commuting nearby. If they suspect traffic or an hour drive, they take their gasoline car because it's too close for comfort. And it's slower than a GTI, to boot... I guess that's the price point/range point the marketing came up with, but I know I would never buy one, while I'd buy a Tesla 3 if it were prettier.... Tesla can do it for $35, so $42K without subsidies... Why can't VW, BMW, GM beat them with economies of manufacturing?

[sugarwood]

General Motors first unveiled the Chevy Bolt as a concept car in January 2015, billing it as a vehicle that would offer 200 miles of range for just $30,000 (after a $7,500 federal tax credit). Barring any unforeseen delays, the first Bolts will roll off the production line at GM’s Orion Assembly facility in Michigan by the end of 2016. As Pam Fletcher, GM’s executive chief engineer for electric vehicles, recently put it to me with a confident grin: “Who wants to be second?”

How GM Beat Tesla to the First True Mass-Market Electric Car | WIRED

[Captain Ahab Jr]

The technology is coming, I'm working for a small engineering consultancy who are pushing the boundaries of battery technology on projects for a number of big automotive manufacturers.

I'm a big fan of Tesla, build quality is not up to European (German) standards but there is no doubt they are leading the charge of the electric only car revolution

I think the other manufacturers will catch up and overtake very quickly as the batteries and motor don't make a whole car package. Saying that I think Tesla are doing an outstanding job and if I was an oil company I'd be worried.

[legion]

I honestly think electric cars will be regarded the same as bell-bottoms, pet rocks, and mood rings are now: as fads and fashion statements. The simple fact is that they have never been economically feasible and you can't take a road trip in an electric car.

[rayng]

why? large manufacturers don't enough batteries. so they have to outsource them. gm can get enough for only 30k bolts.

i had a leaf. quiet and peppy but not enough range.

our daily drivers are s and x.
teslas are wonderful cars to drive.
test drive a tesla. they are a lot of fun and great for commuting.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by Gogar

I think the big manufacturers want to make money instead.

and again this.

Oil is still relatively cheap.

[Tervuren]

The only environmental advantage from an electric car, is you can create pollution outside of where the car actually operates.

There was a children's book we had in my family, "This is what would happen if everybody did". Check out the areas where materials for batteries are mined some day. Try to drink the water!!!!(Please, don't!

Electric cars have a place where the geography of a heavily populated area does not allow airborne pollution to disperse into areas where the forces of nature can re-convert it. However, outside of these areas, you are simply doing more harm to the environment than using petrol.

Outside of specific geographical areas, Electric cars are for the smug brand aware people. Not for the person looking for what they can buy on a normal income. Electric cars are for the people who are cross shopping Porsches, Ferrari's, Jaguars, etc.

Hybrids, while still bad for the environment as they still require materials gained from more toxic mines than conventional metals, do not have the extra tax of masses of toxic batteries. Even better, will be hybrids with mechanical energy storage instead of chemical batteries. Porsche has such a system.

[Nickshu]

Originally Posted by legion

I honestly think electric cars will be regarded the same as bell-bottoms, pet rocks, and mood rings are now: as fads and fashion statements. The simple fact is that they have never been economically feasible and you can't take a road trip in an electric car.

This. We are 20-30 years from viable battery technology to make electric cars fit the lifestyle of most Americans. Are electric cars really that green, or do they just shift the carbon footprint to the local power plant and toxic battery landfill? In Tesla's case they are a niche market and niche automakers historically never last. They either grow huge (BMW), get swallowed up by someone bigger (Porsche, Volvo), or fade away (Saab).

Maybe GM will just buy them out when they are broke? Some things I have read suggest Tesla is not doing well financially?