Lightning Strike

[westom]

Originally Posted by strupgolf

Do you have lightening rods on the roof of your house? Would they help?

Lightning seeks earth ground. A best connection is via the structure (ie wood) to earth. Since the structure is not very conductive, then a high voltage exists. Structure damaged.

Lightning rod simply connects that same current on a path that is very conductive and outside the structure. Lightning rod does not do the protection. That is only a connecting device. Lightning harmlessly dissipates in earth. Then structure is not damaged. Earth ground does the protection.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A best connection is via utility wires to earth. Since appliances are not very conductive, then a high voltage exists. Appliances damaged.

A properly earthed protector (not any plug-in one) connects that same current on a path that is very conductive and outside the structure. Protector does not do the protection. That is only a connecting device. Lightning harmlessly dissipate in earth. Then all appliances are not damaged. Earth ground does the protection.

Plug-in protectors have no earth ground connection. Do not claim to protect from destructive surges. And in some cases, can give lightning a destructive path to earth via nearby appliances. Both devices are called surge protectors. One does nothing useful - no earth ground. The other (that costs tens of times less money) makes that always required low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground. That second (other) 'whole house' protector comes from other companies known by any guy for integrity.

A protector or lightning rod are only as effective as and are only connecting devices to what does all protection - earth ground.

[red-beard]

When we were hit about 10 years ago, the surge came in through the Cable TV line. The Cable modem, a TV, all of the CATV equipment, Wi-Fi router, etc., were killed. It also killed our sprinkler system and our alarm system. All told, it added up to about $8K in damage.

I was in Romania and was on the phone with my Wife when it hit. She screamed.

[westom]

Originally Posted by red-beard

When we were hit about 10 years ago, the surge came in through the Cable TV line.

Your conclusion is based only in observation. We all learned in elementary school science that a conclusion only from observation is junk science.

Add some concepts even taught in elementary school science. It is electricity. That means it must have an incoming path and (at the exact same time) an outgoing path. If incoming was the TV cable, then what was the outgoing path from each damaged appliance (and lawn sprinkler)? If that outgoing path cannot be defined, then an assumption is invalid.

Learn what one must have long before making any conclusion from an observation (to have a hypothesis). That surge was an electrical connection from a cloud (maybe three miles up) to earthborne charges (maybe four miles distant). We know as electric current passed through the sky, at a same time, electric current was also passing through that four miles of earth. Somewhere in that path were a cable modem, TV, CATV equipment, Wi-Fi router, etc.

Why would lightning goto earth via those when the TV cable already has a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth BEFORE entering? That earthing was required long before we existed. How did lightning ignore the service entrance earth ground, pass through all those appliances, and then somehow find some other path to earth? It didn't. Reality requires this much to grasp.

Most damage is incoming on wires most exppsed - AC electric. Unlike cable, AC electric is not required to have effective protection - proper earthing. So the incoming path is obvious. Incoming on AC electric into everything. Is everything damaged? Of course not. Everything does not have a best outgoing path to earth.

Incoming on AC mains. Outgoing through appliances already connected to best lightning protection - installed for free on that cable. Damage is more often on the outgoing path.

That same surge, incoming on AC mains, also found another best connection to earth via lawn sprinklers. A conclusion only from observation completely trashed once we include well proven facts (a hypothesis).

That surge was all but invited inside by the homeowner. It went hunting for a best connection to charges four miles distant via cable modem, TV, etc. due to human mistakes. Solution that averts damage has been well understood and routinely implemented elsewhere even over 100 years ago. How many don't know any of this?

Best protection on TV cable is required and routinely installed hardwire. It makes that low impedance (ie no sharp bends or splices) connection to single point earth ground. Best protection has no protector.

Telephone cannot connect directly to earth. So the telco (even long before either of us existed) installs a 'whole house' protector for free. Long required by codes, standards, and even FCC regulations. That protector is only doing what cable's hardwire does better (with no protector).

AC electric is not required to have surge protection. That is the most common source of destructive surges. Only the fewest informed homeowners properly earth one 'whole house' protector at the service entrance - on AC mains. So again, notice how much must be known and was never found in any soundbyte answer. We are far from done.

Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Because a protector must remain functional for many decades after many direct lightning strikes. This superior solution is tens of times cheaper - about $1 per protected appliance. Your money is put into protection - not into spin, hype, advertising, lies, and hearsay. So best protection costs much less. And comes from other companies known for integrity.

That 50,000 amps defines protection over many surges. Single point earth ground with the always required low impedance connection (ie hardwire not inside metallic conduit) defines protection during each surge.

Effective protection always (as in always) answers this question. Where are hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorbed? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. (Obviously wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground.) Best protection defined by concepts taught in junior high school science. And with what is always necessary for honesty - numbers.

[red-beard]

Weston, what are you selling? You come across fairly insulting for someone with 3 posts, all in this thread.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by westom

Your conclusion is based only in observation.

Hi! I see you are new here. I read your whole post and I came to a couple of conclusions - you like to type and you are weak on science.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by strupgolf

Do you have lightening rods on the roof of your house? Would they help?

Yes. They are pointy and mounted high in order to attract and dissipate the accumulating energy in the atmosphere. They are not designed to take direct strikes and direct the energy to ground. They act as a pressure relieve, if you will, to ground the energy before it builds to the level of creating a lightning strike.

[scottmandue]

Update... as I said we don't get lightening... "it never rains in California... Riiiiight?

Maybe a couple times a decade and even then maybe a half dozen strikes off in the distance and the storm blows through.

Well, not the storm last month, it was nighttime and I had run to the store, leaving the store I cold see/hear the storm approaching.

Get to my front door... suddenly a HUGE explosion and the porch was bathed in an intense white light.

I ran inside like a scared little girl... a transformer a half block away got hit.

[brainz01]

My house got "hit" a couple years back. I have no idea what the actual path to ground was, I suspect it was mostly induced surges actually, as I lost many of my networked devices, a couple HVAC boards, a garage door opener board, and a an alarm panel board. Probably also an HDMI port or two and the cable box. I was fortunate that my [cheap] ethernet switches acted as fuses for the computers.

Like David, I installed surge protectors on all my main and sub panels (and on my HVACs - - the DC motor controllers for variable speed fans are expensive). Knock on wood, no issues since.

I'm not sure what else to do for the low voltage stuff - - it was already on surge protectors and UPS. Fortunately, so long as its limited to routers/switches, it's not terribly expensive to replace.

It's pretty amazing how quickly a close bolt of lightning can wreak havoc on our modern electronics.



Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[westom]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

hey are pointy and mounted high in order to attract and dissipate the accumulating energy in the atmosphere.

Promoted is a roundly proven scam called an ESE device. At one point ESE manufacturers in 1998 tried to get the National Electrical Code to list this device as Article 781. Notice this and so many other statements supported by details that anyone can verify.

When rejected, the ESE industry (ie Heary Bros, Lightning Protection Co.. et al) tried to sue the non-profit NFPA trying to threaten it with legal costs and bankruptcy. It backfired. The Bryan Report in 1999 roundly disputes that 'dissipate the atmosphere' myth. And still that myth lives on with people who have no idea how science works.

If honest, he provided some fact that justifies an ESE myth. ESE is promooted by junk science reasoning.

More reality. FAA decided to test this device. Within days, a lightning strike blew the ESE device off the side of an FAA tower. How could that happen if the ESE device discharges air?

Meanwhile research into lightning rods asked which is better: sharp or blunt rods. Using speculation that promoted ESE devices, one would conclude sharp. Reality. Blunt rods were overwhelmingly a best connector of direct lightning strikes to earth. That (and not discharge air) is what lightning rods do.

Research using science (not speculation that promotes ESE devices) has demonstrated that repeatedly.

One thing is quite clear. wdfifteen has no idea how science works. Even the NFPA rejected what he has just posted.

[westom]

Originally Posted by brainz01

I'm not sure what else to do for the low voltage stuff - - it was already on surge protectors and UPS.

Low voltage electronics, powered from AC mains, must withstand 600 volts without damage. That standard existed long before PCs existed. Today, most low voltage electronics are more robust.

UPS does not even claim protection equal or superior to what is already inside electronics. Again, read spec numbers. How many joules does it claim to absorb?

Plug-in protectors can even compromise superior protection inside appliances. Your example apparently demonstrates that.

Sometimes homeowners fail to grasp what does protection. The world's best protector in a main or sub panel can do nothing if a critically important device is not properly installed - earth ground. Sub panels must not even have an earth ground. So a protector there may be just as ineffective as a UPS or plug-in protector.

A glaring human mistake is apparent. Assumed: a protector does protection. No protector does. Effective protectors made a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground. Earth ground does protection. If that ground does not exist, a protector can even make appliance damage easier.

Wall receptacle safety ground obviously is not earth ground.

When damage happens, an investigation (to find that human mistake) starts with earth ground. We did this often.

For example, in one venue. The entire network of powered off computers were damaged. We traced each surge path by literally replacing every damaged integrated circuit. All hardware fully restored. (How many others can do that?) Some ICs even had the plastic case shattered on its ground pin.

They foolishly used plug-in protectors. All computers were powered off. Those plug-in protectors connected a surge incoming into computer motherboards (bypassing robust protection in its power supply). Outgoing via NICs. Then into other computers that had connections to a phone line and that 'telco installed for free' protection. Outgoing from those computers via a modem. And yes, we even restored all modems.

Damage because a 'whole house' protector did not connect that surge to earth BEFORE entering the house.

So, you had damage? From that post, your protectors do not make a low impedance connection to single point earth ground (all four words have electrical significance).

Induced surges are another urban myth exposed by so many EE facts - with numbers. Or demonstrate by example. (If not yet obvious, I have been doing this stuff for many generations.)

Lightning struck a lightning rod. So maybe 20,000 amps were connected to earth on a hardwire that was outside - only four feet away from an IBM PC. That is a maximum induced surge. That PC (and all other electronics) did not even blink. Because induced surges only do damage when wild speculation (that also promoted ESE device) exists.

If lightning does any damage, a human searches for his mistake that made that damage possible. That investigation always starts with the only item that defines a layer of protection - earth ground. Apparently you did not have and probably should still correct a missing or compromised earth ground.

That is your 'secondary' protection layer. Your 'primary' protection layer also should be inspected.

[westom]

Originally Posted by red-beard

You come across fairly insulting for someone with 3 posts, all in this thread.

Only posted are technical facts. If insulted, then you are not reading technically. In technical discussions, no emotions exist or are relevant. When a conclusion is only justified by junk science reasoning, then it is wrong. Exposing urban myths insults no one. Especially when 'reasons why' come with supporting facts and numbers.

Quite bluntly exposed is an ESE lie. Nobody should be insulted by the Bryan report, et al. But one, who made a 'weak science' accusation, then posted classic junk science - ESE devices. Again, nobody is insulted. An obvious technical myth is exposed - by also providing the reasons why. He never posted a single reason to believe that ESE speculation. Anyone who does not provide 'reasons why' is suspect as dishonest or deceived. And that also insults no one. That is a technical reality.

Everything posted were and are facts - with reasons why it can be believed. Some paragraphs demonstrate how easily scams can be promoted and have been believed. That insults nobody - if one is reading technically; not emotionally.

Concepts such as ESE should result in a "I cannot believe I was so easily deceived" conclusions.

Apparently so many lies and myths must be unlearned (that can be hard). And plenty of well proven science, from over 100 years ago, must be learned. None of that insults anyone even though most did not know any of it.

[Tobra]

You joined in 2014 and have six posts, all in this thread.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by westom

Lightning is typically 20,000 amps

Shame you can't feed it back into the national grid and get paid for it

[Rapewta]

I installed a transfer box behind my load center. Easy. We have a 8900kw gas powered
generator and is simple to transfer after a power outage.
We were cheap because we live in Calif.
My sister who lives in Clair county, Missouri installed a big Onan, propane generator and has paid off.

I don't need an automatic transfer. If the power in going to be out and I need a hot shower,
(All electric house)... I backfeed with the main circuit breaker cleared and enjoy running my all electric house with my neighbors coming over for $5.00 shower and phone chargings.

Pretty cool.

[red-beard]

It's a bot. A moderator, please take care of this.

[RKDinOKC]

Have a utility light on a pole in my front and back yard that the wires for the lights are in metal conduit down and into the ground. Also a large cottonwood tree in the back yard. And the above ground utility wires go underground the next house over. If lightning strikes my house it is a vengeful act of God against my house specifically.

[westom]

Originally Posted by RKDinOKC

If lightning strikes my house it is a vengeful act of God against my house specifically.

A lightning strike to the house does not damage appliances. Lightning striking utility wires even a mile away can be a direct strike to household appliances.

Lightning rods, only if properly earthed, protect a house. 'Whole house' protector, if properly earthed, protects appliances inside that house. In every case, a lightning rod or a protector is only a connecting device to and is only as effective as its earth ground.

OP had damage apparently because he did not have properly installed 'whole house' protection. Protectors in sub-boxes imply he thought a protector does protection. It does not. A protector is only useful when connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to that other item that does all protection: earth ground.

Who posts this stuff is irrelevant. Only relevant are facts. Unfortunately it makes many angry to learn that they wasted big bucks on ineffective and obscenely profitable plug-in protectors.

Protection from lightning is so routine and so well proven that damage is traceable to a human mistake. Some common mistakes are discussed in previous posts. The most common mistakes are found in lies promoted by advertising.

No plug-in protectors does effective protection. And can even make appliance damage easier. Even an effective 'whole house' protector is made ineffective if not connected low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends or spices) to single point earth ground. As was well understood over 100 years ago. And is found in every facility that cannot have damage.

That should not make anyone angry. But it does. People do not like to admit to being scammed by products from APC, Belkin, Panamax, Monster, Furman, and Tripplite. Effective 'whole house' protectors come from a long list of other companies well known for integrity.

[westom]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

Shame you can't feed it back into the national grid and get paid for it

Unfortunately lightning is not that much energy. It is high power but not high energy. Furthermore a lightning strike is a very rare event. It might happen once every ten years - a number that varies significantly with other factors such as geology.

So we typically spend about $1 per protected appliance for best protection of everything from direct lightning strikes and other sources of surges.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by westom

A lightning strike to the house does not damage appliances. Lightning striking utility wires even a mile away can be a direct strike to household appliances.

.......

That should not make anyone angry. But it does. People do not like to admit to being scammed by products from APC, Belkin, Panamax, Monster, Furman, and Tripplite. Effective 'whole house' protectors come from a long list of other companies well known for integrity.

I've had 2 strikes. One tree in front yard, another in back. 1st hit, tree in front, took out 3 older tube sets, and alarm panel. One set still worked, with wonky colors. It eventually cleared up. I saw the strike that hit the tree in the back yard, saw branches flying, bark blown off. Went out after storm and tree was still warm. That one left the TV's alone (newer sets, plasma and lcd) but it took out most of the magnetic window and door switches, and alarm panel.

Seeing the damage, however, I would suspect the two little disks in a power strip will do little other than making the switched strip fail.

I suspect the UPS in between the lines and my server will do more to protect the server.

[westom]

Originally Posted by dad911

I suspect the UPS in between the lines and my server will do more to protect the server.

Apparently you believe a UPS will somehow 'block' a surge. It will not. It does not claim to. Only emotions, inspired by advertising lies, reinforce that UPS myth.

Those 2 cm disks inside a power strip are superior to protection provided by a UPS.

Meanwhile, protection inside a server's power supply is superior to both.

Defined is damage because that surge was inside. A connection from a cloud (ie three miles up) to earthborne charges (ie four miles distant) was through a tree, then probably through some buried conductor, into a house, destructively through tube sets and alarm panel, and then out four miles to earthborne charges.

That electric current was inside because of a human mistake. A solution always starts by first defining the mistake / defect. What was that destructive path through a house? Investigation starts at single point earth ground. Did other earth grounds exist? Did any conductor outside the house enter without making a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to that earth ground? If any are yes, then a human all but invited lightning inside.

Those 2 cm disks inside a power strip must somehow 'block' or 'absorb' a surge. Numbers make it obvious - those power strip protectors (and even less protection in a UPS) do not claim to protect from destructive surges. Those will somehow 'block' a surge? Anything that 'blocks' a surge is a scam.

Protection is always about connecting a surge on a path that is not destructive. That means a lightning strike to a tree should have never connected that current into the house.

Effective protection never 'blocks' a surge. Effective protection always connects that current on a path that is not destructive - that is not anywhere inside a house.