Blown up BMW, wrong engine oil, whose fault?

[Dave Kost]

Hi Fred.

Pull an oil sample and have it analyzed. Or did he dump the oil already? I know 6k on regular oil is waaaay too long especially on a tight clearance BMW engine. I would not go that far an a synthetic either. Check the viscosity number on the results of the oil analysis- that will tell the story.

[asphaltgambler]

^^^ actually that is not true per BMW^^^

The previous generations of E39, E38, etc - were programed to go as long as 15K between oil services depending upon how hard it was ran. This was measured essentially through injector pulse width / time / RPM's and ambient temperature.

The current generations utilizes similar, but more comprehensive measurements called CSB - or (Condition Based Service), but the mileage target of 15K remains believe it or not.

I personally service mine @5K - It gives me piece of mind...........

[strupgolf]

On all my BMW's, even my 98 m3, it says, WITH A BIG NOTICE, you should use only bmw recommened synthetic oil in this engine. I think this guy was just being cheap.

[tdw28210]

Is it an M car? I think those have the s85 engine. Crazy tight tolerances that result in rod bearing failures at an abnormally high rate. Smarter folks than me think the 10w/60 oil BMW recommends is way too thick.

Excerpt for a blog called 540rat.

After going through all that, it turned out that the root cause of all those failures was that BMW had designed/built the engines with insufficient rod bearing clearance (barely large enough for 5W30 motor oil and WAY too tight for super thick oil), insufficient connecting rod side clearance, and they called for insanely thick 10W60 motor oil, which is WAY too thick for acceptable oil flow/lubrication/cooling. It was a perfect storm of doing multiple things completely wrong to actually “cause” rod bearing failures. It was extremely disappointing to see BMW do such a poor job at designing/building those engines. They actually unintentionally designed the engines so that the rod bearings “would” fail. I would have expected far better from them.

[Dave Kost]

Thanks for pointing this out. 15k on non synthetic? Or does BMW spec synthetic oil? What weight? ( sorry I really don't know) Only real way is to have it analyzed. Anyways to approach 15k oil changes it better be some good stuff! Or have 20 quarts in the system.




asphaltgambler;9227544]^^^ actually that is not true per BMW^^^

The previous generations of E39, E38, etc - were programed to go as long as 15K between oil services depending upon how hard it was ran. This was measured essentially through injector pulse width / time / RPM's and ambient temperature.

The current generations utilizes similar, but more comprehensive measurements called CSB - or (Condition Based Service), but the mileage target of 15K remains believe it or not.

I personally service mine @5K - It gives me piece of mind...........[/QUOTE]

[Rick Lee]

Pretty sure BMW-branded synthetic oil is made by Castrol or whatever other manufacturer won the bid for that model and year. Other than motorcycles, I don't think BMW has used dino oil in the factory fills for many years. So going with dino is just asking for a warranty claim denial. It's probably not a bad thing if you live in a mild climate and change the oil every 3k miles. Still, it's less frequent work and not much more money to go with synthetic for each oil change. Why not err on the side of caution?

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

I run Rotella T6 in my WRX, and it is within spec for the range of oils specified. There are a lot of reasons why I use it. So do a lot of Corvette guys.

The point is, the oil in my WRX is not below specification. The oil in the BMW might be, and yes, that can be a problem.

By the way, I had a tune done on my WRX because the stock tune on certain model years is known to run lean. There are some very knowledgeable people on NASIOC, and some very well documented threads that baseline information. I know some of them as professionals, and I trust their judgement. I'm not sure what your qualifications are to judge them. I personally trust them a whole lot more than some guy at Jiffy Lube, if you see what I am saying.

Good for you.

The maintenance schedule in the owner's manual isn't from Jiffy Lube, it was written by the engineers at SOA. Not one of those tuners, nor anyone else in that forum will pay for a shortblock if it spins a bearing on Rotella.

Millions of Subarus go up and down the road without all that extraneous BS they recommend, and warranty under Subaru terms is just that. Do you see them blowing up everywhere? I don't.

They run fine (stock) without all the tuner stories and BS. Oh, and YES, I trust the owner's manual before I trust some Bro in that forum. Those "tuners" make $$$ charging $500/pop for those custom tunes, and negligible benefits, except a car that is hair-trigger sensitive to fuel.

It's a racket. None of 'em will help you either when it pops due to tune.

Good luck with your WRX. If it pops, at least the forums will tell you it's not their fault I'm confident my 2016 will stay running if I use SOA recommended maintenance procedures.

PS 15w40 isn't within spec for my EJ, and according to the manual it should only be used to avoid running out of oil. I use rotella myself in anything that can use that weight and oil.

It's just something that people who want to "mod" cars do- it's a psychological thing- right up there with the "CAI" (cold air intake- in practice, HOT air intake) - mostly detrimental. Factory oil and weight on an otherwise stock engine is FINE.

Rotella probably isn't hurting much, but it sure as hell isn't necessary and proposes an otherwise unnecessary (Warranty) risk. I've got 25K between my EJ257 and FA20 on STOCK tunes, SUBARU oil with zero oil loss, consumption, and no blown pistons with abuse- in NASIOC I'd be considered insane for daring to run a STI like that with no bro tune and 15/40. I know many other owners will over 100K with nothing but 5w30 and no forum voodoo done to their cars. Stock tune even

$40K car, and the kids instantly take it out of warranty by doing that crap. Then try to change it back for warranty when despite what they read- it pops. Bad scene all around.

Mind you, if the engine has been torn apart and built up - do what you will but on a stock on it's unnecessary.

rjp

[Peterfrans]

Originally Posted by asphaltgambler

^^^ actually that is not true per BMW^^^

The previous generations of E39, E38, etc - were programed to go as long as 15K between oil services depending upon how hard it was ran. This was measured essentially through injector pulse width / time / RPM's and ambient temperature.

The current generations utilizes similar, but more comprehensive measurements called CSB - or (Condition Based Service), but the mileage target of 15K remains believe it or not.

I personally service mine @5K - It gives me piece of mind...........

It seems service intervals are much shorter on your side of the ocean. I am on my 7th BMW (from e46 to f30) and the mileage target has always been about 20k miles between service. Always wondered why there seems to be this difference between US and Europe.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

Good for you.

The maintenance schedule in the owner's manual isn't from Jiffy Lube, it was written by the engineers at SOA. Not one of those tuners, nor anyone else in that forum will pay for a shortblock if it spins a bearing on Rotella.

Millions of Subarus go up and down the road without all that extraneous BS they recommend, and warranty under Subaru terms is just that. Do you see them blowing up everywhere? I don't.

They run fine (stock) without all the tuner stories and BS. Oh, and YES, I trust the owner's manual before I trust some Bro in that forum. Those "tuners" make $$$ charging $500/pop for those custom tunes, and negligible benefits, except a car that is hair-trigger sensitive to fuel.

It's a racket. None of 'em will help you either when it pops due to tune.

Good luck with your WRX. If it pops, at least the forums will tell you it's not their fault I'm confident my 2016 will stay running if I use SOA recommended maintenance procedures.

PS 15w40 isn't within spec for my EJ, and according to the manual it should only be used to avoid running out of oil. I use rotella myself in anything that can use that weight and oil.

It's just something that people who want to "mod" cars do- it's a psychological thing- right up there with the "CAI" (cold air intake- in practice, HOT air intake) - mostly detrimental. Factory oil and weight on an otherwise stock engine is FINE.

Rotella probably isn't hurting much, but it sure as hell isn't necessary and proposes an otherwise unnecessary (Warranty) risk. I've got 25K between my EJ257 and FA20 on STOCK tunes, SUBARU oil with zero oil loss, consumption, and no blown pistons with abuse- in NASIOC I'd be considered insane for daring to run a STI like that with no bro tune and 15/40. I know many other owners will over 100K with nothing but 5w30 and no forum voodoo done to their cars. Stock tune even

$40K car, and the kids instantly take it out of warranty by doing that crap. Then try to change it back for warranty when despite what they read- it pops. Bad scene all around.

Mind you, if the engine has been torn apart and built up - do what you will but on a stock on it's unnecessary.

rjp

I had 186 K on my old WRX when I sold it. Ran great. But I'm thinking that it was the BMW owner who was taking oil advice from his ''lube'' friend, not you.

It's great that your cars are stock, and run a stock tune. NASIOC is not about that. Ranting on them in this thread isn't really to the point of this thread. If you have a problem with NASIOC, don't post there. Again, T6 is within spec for my car. It would not affect my warranty, if my warranty was still in effect.

Blown up BMW, wrong engine oil, whose fault? The real question isn't who's fault, but who is liable. Fred is being a nice guy, and it will probably cost him money. In the long run though, being a good guy often comes back to us in good will. In my profession, the owner is liable to me for all costs, not the insurer. The insured collects the money and pays me, or does not collect the money, and still pays me. I am clear about that up front.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

I had 186 K on my old WRX when I sold it. Ran great. But I'm thinking that it was the BMW owner who was taking oil advice from his ''lube'' friend, not you.

It's great that your cars are stock, and run a stock tune. NASIOC is not about that. Ranting on them in this thread isn't really to the point of this thread. If you have a problem with NASIOC, don't post there. Again, T6 is within spec for my car. It would not affect my warranty, if my warranty was still in effect.

Blown up BMW, wrong engine oil, whose fault? The real question isn't who's fault, but who is liable. Fred is being a nice guy, and it will probably cost him money. In the long run though, being a good guy often comes back to us in good will. In my profession, the owner is liable to me for all costs, not the insurer. The insured collects the money and pays me, or does not collect the money, and still pays me. I am clear about that up front.

Why to NASIOC people get so butt-hurt when you question them? Did I lie or make something up?

actually, T6 would get you voided. They obfuscate that fact on the forum using armchair legalese.- same with that silly distinction they love to bring up about the term "voided" VS. "denied"- the tuners who charge love to hide behind that distinction. Try to tell SOA you changed your oil with Rotella, give them receipts and see what they do to you.

So, when the noob spends his $$$ on the fancy tune on his brand new WRX or whatever, expecting to gain all kinds of HP

"does it void my warranty? "

the dealer can't "VOID" warranty!

Kid assumes it's all good.

Engine pops- subaru "denies" warranty due to improper oil and mods.

I don't post there, I don't even have an account.. Been around enough of 'em to know what I'm dealing with. PS it is relevant to this thread- chances are the Jiffy Lube guy didn't tell him to do that, they always try to upsell + their system will note the type of oil that is REQUIRED.

The point is, someone probably fed the owner an old wives tale, and now he pays for it. BMW or any manufacturer will scalp him.

rjp

[Dave Kost]

Originally Posted by asphaltgambler

^^^ actually that is not true per BMW^^^

The previous generations of E39, E38, etc - were programed to go as long as 15K between oil services depending upon how hard it was ran. This was measured essentially through injector pulse width / time / RPM's and ambient temperature.

The current generations utilizes similar, but more comprehensive measurements called CSB - or (Condition Based Service), but the mileage target of 15K remains believe it or not.

I personally service mine @5K - It gives me piece of mind...........

The only real way to the drain intervals is to pull an oil sample to get a baseline as to the oil condition. But I think 5000 miles would be my limit using the best oil and the right weight recommended by the mfg. Not much of an upside extending the drain period if oil is not doing it'd job.

Remember the mfg just wants to get past the warrantee period and the rest is on you.

I think in this case the oil thickened up, sludged up and rod bearings gave up. Also, just just didn't happen overnight but an extended abuse period. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Quick lube guy may have put the wrong stuff in also.

PS - I just won a 3 year battle with GM on my 2009 Buick Enclave timing chain replacement that said initially it was caused by "dirty oil"

[M.D. Holloway]

OK - if its the wrong weight it might contribute to issues but putting in the proper viscosity and using an API approved oil won't fail and engine. If the oil was to light or too heavy it would have to be out by 2 grades to create issues and even then not so much.

Easy to blame the oil, but that is not the reason for failure.

[M.D. Holloway]

Oil analysis is cheap - offered at NAPA and CARQUEST. Oils these days are pretty well formulated and the different between synthetic and mineral based isn't going to be all that noticeable on a daily driver. I know a very good mechanic that uses used oil he drains from other cars in his cars. he thinks people change oil way too soon. I have access to tons of data and I agree. I went 43,000 miles on the same oil without a filter or oil change. Yes, I sweetened it due to pulling 4 oz samples every 3000 miles.

I have tons of documentation that diesel engine will go 40 to 50K between changes. Granted, a different engine and fuel but I shows just how far oil formulas have come.

[bpu699]

Originally Posted by M.D. Holloway

Oil analysis is cheap - offered at NAPA and CARQUEST. Oils these days are pretty well formulated and the different between synthetic and mineral based isn't going to be all that noticeable on a daily driver. I know a very good mechanic that uses used oil he drains from other cars in his cars. he thinks people change oil way too soon. I have access to tons of data and I agree. I went 43,000 miles on the same oil without a filter or oil change. Yes, I sweetened it due to pulling 4 oz samples every 3000 miles.

I have tons of documentation that diesel engine will go 40 to 50K between changes. Granted, a different engine and fuel but I shows just how far oil formulas have come.

Napa and carquest do oil analysis? Didn't know that... Is it on site?

[9dreizig]

Originally Posted by M.D. Holloway

Oil analysis is cheap - offered at NAPA and CARQUEST. Oils these days are pretty well formulated and the different between synthetic and mineral based isn't going to be all that noticeable on a daily driver. I know a very good mechanic that uses used oil he drains from other cars in his cars. he thinks people change oil way too soon. I have access to tons of data and I agree. I went 43,000 miles on the same oil without a filter or oil change. Yes, I sweetened it due to pulling 4 oz samples every 3000 miles.

I have tons of documentation that diesel engine will go 40 to 50K between changes. Granted, a different engine and fuel but I shows just how far oil formulas have come.

Good to know,, since you ARE the expert.. I have a question.. what about the time between oil changes if the car is a garage queen just sitting there.. Does oil age ? I mean it's already million of years old right ?

[rusnak]

Why would a bottom end bearing fail, and not something in the top end? It's as if it's a parts failure or something related to the engine manufacture process.

[manbridge 74]

Thread needs carnage pics

[greglepore]

Good thread, and we're going to learn a bit if Lubey sticks with it, but we're confusing issues, I think.
I don't think anyone actually believes that a couple oil changes with dino oil failed a BMW with an auto trans...I mean really?
But if you've ever dealt with any aftermarket warranty co, you'll soon find that they will deny for any reason they can grab. Outta spec oil, outta here! A real shame really.
And the biggest shame is that the car is tying up Fred's time/space/lift/lot whatever while its sorted, an in the end he won't break even. But its customer service, and you gotta do it to stay alive.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by M.D. Holloway

OK - if its the wrong weight it might contribute to issues but putting in the proper viscosity and using an API approved oil won't fail and engine. If the oil was to light or too heavy it would have to be out by 2 grades to create issues and even then not so much.

Easy to blame the oil, but that is not the reason for failure.

Lube- what are your thoughts on shear?

There's lots of noise about oil shearing down to a lower weight and as a result, less protection. Blackstone uses comments that imply it's not a good thing?

[speeder]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

Why to NASIOC people get so butt-hurt when you question them? Did I lie or make something up?

actually, T6 would get you voided. They obfuscate that fact on the forum using armchair legalese.- same with that silly distinction they love to bring up about the term "voided" VS. "denied"- the tuners who charge love to hide behind that distinction. Try to tell SOA you changed your oil with Rotella, give them receipts and see what they do to you.

So, when the noob spends his $$$ on the fancy tune on his brand new WRX or whatever, expecting to gain all kinds of HP

"does it void my warranty? "

the dealer can't "VOID" warranty!

Kid assumes it's all good.

Engine pops- subaru "denies" warranty due to improper oil and mods.

I don't post there, I don't even have an account.. Been around enough of 'em to know what I'm dealing with. PS it is relevant to this thread- chances are the Jiffy Lube guy didn't tell him to do that, they always try to upsell + their system will note the type of oil that is REQUIRED.

The point is, someone probably fed the owner an old wives tale, and now he pays for it. BMW or any manufacturer will scalp him.

rjp

You do realize that Rotella T6 is 5w40 full synthetic, right? Still void the warrantee?

https://www.google.com/search?q=shell+rotella+t6&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari