Update on my solar install

[John Rogers]

Well it has been a little over two weeks since I was approved and turned on the system. I checked to see when the little "arrow" on the meter would start pointing to the inverter, meaning it is making more electricity than I am using and it is about 6:45 AM even it there is some haze. I was a little worried about haze since I live about a mile from the San Diego bay and we get overcast in the AM.

The arrow changes towards SDG&E about the time the sun goes just below the horizon so about 12 hours a day. I tried running the bedroom A/C, drill press, lathe, two refrigerators, one freezer, two computers and four ceiling fans and the arrow still points to the inverter! Yeah!!!

It will be a while before the next bill so we'll see what happens to costs?

[mreid]

Congratulations!

[Evans, Marv]

Congrats John. With the days getting shorter, it will produce less. I think mine is down something like 4 kwh/day. I made it onto the net metering program, so I won't know the big picture until June of next year.

[flatbutt]

John, are you running with or w/out batteries?

[John Rogers]

I asked about getting batteries and they are being tested right now but have to get some sort of federal approval once the testing is complete? The testing is taking place in Hawaii I was told and I asked to be put on the list to test them in So Cal when possible. They use Hawaii since there is a great mix of sun and also a lot of rain, especially with all the storms they have been having so the system gets rung out really well.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by john rogers

I asked about getting batteries and they are being tested right now but have to get some sort of federal approval once the testing is complete? The testing is taking place in Hawaii I was told and I asked to be put on the list to test them in So Cal when possible. They use Hawaii since there is a great mix of sun and also a lot of rain, especially with all the storms they have been having so the system gets rung out really well.

THAT sounds like a crock!

We build battery based systems. We can even link an existing grid-tie system to our battery inverter system. It is cheaper overall if you do the battery based system from the beginning.

Our latest offering is similar to an essentials circuit generator. The inverter output is connected to all 110VAC circuits, which never lose power. "intermittent" loads are operated only when the generator runs.

You gain the benefits of year round solar helping save money, but with the addition of a whole house UPS. Larger inverter banks are available which allow some or all of the high demand circuits on the "essential" side.

Installed in Texas, a 4000 square foot house with two 3.5 ton A/C units can be run with our smallest 220VAC Mi-Grid system, with a 20kW Natural Gas Generator. Installed cost is around $35K, but depends on distance to electric and gas lines. Permits are extra.

[Vipergrün]

I've had solar (Solar City) for just over two years and with running a pool pump, AC, appliances, etc, I have never dipped into 'real' electricity from Edison. I was paying Edison just about a buck per month until they started charging a 10.00 service minimum. B@stards. I'd love to get the Tesla PowerWall and be done with the grid for good.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Vipergrün

I've had solar (Solar City) for just over two years and with running a pool pump, AC, appliances, etc, I have never dipped into 'real' electricity from Edison. I was paying Edison just about a buck per month until they started charging a 10.00 service minimum. B@stards. I'd love to get the Tesla PowerWall and be done with the grid for good.

You do understand that the Power Wall is just a battery pack and it requires extensive work to connect to anything, right?

Also, as I;ve pointed out before, the Power Wall is extremely expensive, especially if you actually use it as a power supply battery. For each kWh stored and retrieved, the cost is around $0.22 per kWh.

The Nano-Carbon batteries we use have a round trip cost of $0.07 per kWh stored and retrieved. They can also be economically recycled, which Lithium cannot.

[Vipergrün]

Originally Posted by red-beard

You do understand that the Power Wall is just a battery pack and it requires extensive work to connect to anything, right?

Also, as I;ve pointed out before, the Power Wall is extremely expensive, especially if you actually use it as a power supply battery. For each kWh stored and retrieved, the cost is around $0.22 per kWh.

The Nano-Carbon batteries we use have a round trip cost of $0.07 per kWh stored and retrieved. They can also be economically recycled, which Lithium cannot.

Not to hijack this thread, but I'd be interested to know more.....website?

[John Rogers]

James, you forgot that I am in California and in addition to the battery pack issue, the electricians, solar panel roof installers, ETC all have to be union and there has to be at least one licensed electrician on each part of the job. To help confuse and mess things further......the city and SDG&E inspectors have to be specially trained! I figure that CA is probably the worst state to do this stuff so if the company gets everything okay here then all the other states will be a breeze.

There are some places where the home owner can do this stuff on their own but not here.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Vipergrün

Not to hijack this thread, but I'd be interested to know more.....website?

For the Power Wall stuff, start here:

Oooh, gotta watch those Tesla updates

The article is gone, but the wayback machine has a copy:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160701134946/http://investorintel.com/cleantech-intel/tesla-energys-incredible-shrinking-powerwall-warranty/

On our stuff, look here:

Outback Power Inc. - EnergyCell Nano-Carbon

The way to evaluate different batteries is calculate the total usable energy storage through the entire life of the battery. Divide the cost of the battery by this number. It will give you a $/kWh. Remember to take into account the battery degradation over the cycle life.

A Tesla battery is $3000. It stores 6.4 kWh of energy.

From the ORIGINAL warranty, it must maintain 85% capacity after 4MWh of cycling.

Using an average capacity of 92.5%, this is 5.92 kWh. 4000kWh/5.92kWh = 675 cycles.

It must maintain 72% after 9MWh, this is 1635 cycles.

And it must maintain 60% after 18 MWh, this is 3515 cycles.

$3000/18000= $0.167 per kWh.

BUT, the point of the article is TESLA has changed the terms of service and no longer honors those numbers.

A 2.4 kWh Nano-Carbon battery is around $250. Typical end of life for this type of battery is 20% loss of capacity. So, average 90% capacity. 3000 cycles @50% Depth of Discharge = 2.4*3000*.9*.5=3240kWh. or $0.077/kWh.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by john rogers

James, you forgot that I am in California and in addition to the battery pack issue, the electricians, solar panel roof installers, ETC all have to be union and there has to be at least one licensed electrician on each part of the job. To help confuse and mess things further......the city and SDG&E inspectors have to be specially trained! I figure that CA is probably the worst state to do this stuff so if the company gets everything okay here then all the other states will be a breeze.

There are some places where the home owner can do this stuff on their own but not here.

The difference between City vs. County installs here can be amazing.

In the county, we can most of the electrical work and all of the plumbing work on a generator. We can't do the final tie in utility, so a licensed electrician does that. We also pay them do an inspection.

In the City, a licensed electrician has to do it all and a licensed plumber has to do the gas line. Permits and inspections are required for virtually everything. The costs are much much higher.

[Red88Carrera]

I am going to wait and see if you will get a return on your total investment in your lifetime.
I think not...

[red-beard]

Against the utility, most of the battery systems are too costly, certainly when you add in the cost of the rest of the equipment. Where this shines is operating against a generator.

[M.D. Holloway]

I'm liking the idea of a cloth capable of converting sunlight into e (maybe even pressure?) and that is strong enough to use as a sail...

[M.D. Holloway]

ever see one of these in action?

Ralos - Simply the Best Solar Charging Battery Case

[John Rogers]

Don, as I mentioned in my original post, I am not worried about my ROI and I doubt I will live long enough to see it, whatever it may be. My sole intent is to keep from paying those crooks at SDG&E the high rates they have during the day time.

[stealthn]

Hey John, can we get an update on overall cost of ownership

[John Rogers]

Well it has been nearly a year and shortly I get one of the bills that shows each month and how much I paid vs how much electricity my system made. Here are several items I noticed:

- The system starts making power as soon as it gets light outside and stops well after the sun goes down.
- Doesn't matter if it is sunny or raining, generates the same amount it appears.
- The system went off line for a couple weeks right after one of the really bad wind and rain storms we had here. There was some condensation in a couple of the junction boxes and the tech fellow drilled small drain holes in all of them so no more issues.
- On several monthly statements my account showed a large negative balance meaning I made more than I used they said.

So far I have been really happy with the system.

[Evans, Marv]

OK, I just got my year "true up" from S.D.G.&E for this past year. I was really curious about what the situation would be. Like John, part of my motivation was to get away from "paying those crooks at S.D.G.&E." My system went on line June 15th of last year, so I'm missing about half a sunny month of generation because the "true up" ended the end of the month before the system went on line. Here are some numbers. My system cost $27K. With the tax credit I got $8.1K back from the Feds, so net cost was $18.9K. My average monthly electric bill was something like $250/mo. (IIRC) or very close to $3K/yr. My "true up" statement gave me a credit of $41.57 after S.D.G.&E.'s fees were deducted. (The company said they tried to match generation and usage.) So if this past year is any indication, the system should pay for itself in about 6.3 years. The company said approximately 5 years for pay off. I have 25 panels that can generate a max of 300-315 W/hr./panel so max is 7.5 KW/hr. Unlike John's, my system doesn't generate the same if it's not sunny or it's raining, so during winter months, generation is down. My system generated a net of 255+ KWh in Nov. '16. This past April and May the system generated 1.4MWh+ each month. On balance, it looks like this thing is going to work out OK if there is no damage/disruption to the system. Congrats again, John. I'm hoping we & lots of others who got in on the net metering program will be able to stick it to S.D.G.&E. on a long term basis.