OT Possible "Shill Biding" (bid manipulation)...

[korijo]

Not naming names, yet. I want the accused to contact me (you know who you are).

Shill bidding is bidding on your own auction to raise the current bid. Get it? Not cool.

Please feel free to elaborate.

[Zeke]

I know this will get moved as it is OT. But, guess what? Get used to it. It's been going on since the beginning of time. At any auction you must determine the max you will pay before even bidding. Plan on NOT winning 90% of the things you bid on. I've been going to live auctions for over 35 years. I've seen all the shilling and inside deals that you can think of. I really don't think about paying anything less than retail when I buy. If I'm lucky, maybe twice, I get a deal. And the sucker that's selling is paying 30% commisinon. It would be much better for all concerned if there was no such thing as an auction. Sorry for the rant, you struck a nerve.

[Dave Bell]

Listen to Zeke .... set a max price you are willing to pay and then walk away.

Shill bidding happens and apparently is deemed acceptable or at least knowingly tolerated in many auctions.

As an example, I was at a dealer only auction with a friend down in Orange County, CA, (he got me a sales person licence under his dealership which enabled me to bid), and I was bidding on an old Mercedes. I set myself a max price and ended up bidding against one other man. When I reached my max, I stopped, the other guy bid higher and the auction ended... but then to my amazement, the auctioneer actually leaned down to the high bidder and asked him if he wanted to sell the car to me at my last bid price! He agreed and I agreeded and I bought the car... I was bidding against the owner nearly the entire time... I did get a deal on the car because I set a maximum and quit.

Caveat Emptor

[cnavarro]

I don't think shill bidding is as prevalent as the frequency with which "impulse buyers" bid on something with the BIN and then change their mind, to stiff you the $50 you spent on the auction...just happened to me a day or two ago. You learn to live with it unfortunately.

Charles Navarro

[ss6]

Dave, very interesting story! I've only done eBay and only once for a wrecked 911, but their using their proxy bid service ensured my following the discipline advised in yours and Zeke's posts.

I had to decide up front the max I was willing to pay, enter that, then stand back and let eBay's computer "one-up" competitive bids (unless it hit the max). Avoided getting caught up in the frenzy, and the computer trumped the "last second" bidders.

[Zeke]

This thread is gonna get interesting. Somebody come up with a 914 story to save it!

Several years ago, I was at an auction for a restaurant that had gone belly up. They were selling the lights off the walls and the carpets off the floors. When they got to the automactic booze dispenser in the bar, the auctioneer says, "Let's start the bidding off at one hundred dollars, do I have a hundred dollars? Yes! Ok, now 125.............(pause about 5 seconds)..........Sold! One hundred dollars, next item is..................." And the buyer turns out to be one of them (the auction company) because I stayed all the way until the end when people were loading up the goods. Autioneer directs the movers to put the dispenser over in the pile of goods "not sold." The drink system was worth hundreds, if not in the thousands. So it works both ways, inside deals, shills, you name it.

Now let me tell you about the Armenian oriental rug auction in LA.......Naw, I'll save it. Just figure, "goat rope.'

[korijo]

I have learnt the hard way, again. This auction I won, unfortunately. But the shill bidder, IMHO, jacked the price up 90 bucks. F'in 90 BUCKS. Just shows how GREEDY some people are.

This is a "well off" person, and I raise a 3 soon to be 4 person family off of social securiity.

Not cool.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by korijo
I have learnt the hard way, again.

Now, what did Confusius say about that? Something along the lines of shame on a man if he gets to you, shame on you if he gets to you twice. Was that it?

[sammyg2]

Easy way around shill bidding:
wait until the last possible moment to bid (sniping). That was the shill doesn't have time to run it up very much. That is unless someone else is bidding also.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by sammyg2
Easy way around shill bidding:
wait until the last possible moment to bid (sniping). That was the shill doesn't have time to run it up very much. That is unless someone else is bidding also.

Oh, and I really hate that. I understand that there are software programs outside of Ebay's proxy bid that do just that, bid in the last seconds. One more reason to establish your price, bid your max and forget about it until the auction ends. I just did that on a Mazda oil cooler. Recently there were four or so up on ebay. I bid the same amount on two of them. I won one, lost the other, ingnored the third using it as a back up in case I lost the first two. Botom line, I got the thing for what I would pay, if not, then there's always another coming along. If everyone did this, shills would hurt more than they help because less would sell overall.

[woodman]

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

[pbanders]

Everybody's got their Ebay scheme. Mine is that I decide on the maximum I'm willing to pay for an item up front. I watch the item, wait until 5 minutes to go. If the price is over my max, I'm done, I don't bid. If not, I wait until less than 30 seconds and bid my max. If I get it, great. If not, too bad.

The reason I wait is due to "Ebay buyer's syndrome" a disease that affects way too many Ebay bidders. They see an item, bid some fairly low price early in the auction, and start thinking "it's mine". They start planning on how they're going to use the item, what a great deal they're getting, etc. Oops, somebody out-bid them. Better jack that max. What? I'm still under the bid? But it's MINE! Next thing you know, yet another Ebay item goes for a ridiculous price. Example: the 914 Saratoga Top that bid up to $2200 early last year!!!

By not giving a person with a lower max than mine time to react, I avoid their sudden decision to increase their max bid. If they bid early, and their max is more than mine, well, I'm not going to get it, and that's fine with me. But 99% of the time, I find that I get the item. YMMV.

[handyher]

My husband and I have been going to auctions for about 20 years now. We are always amazed at the prices people will pay just because they do not know how to put down their arm. I do the same alot of you - put max bid on ebay and wait to see. Some times the deal is a good one sometimes not. We used to figure that at auction it wasn't a deal unless it we bought for 40% below wholesale !!!!! well that's me two cents for the day.

Here's wishing you all a Safe and Sane New Year.

[hardflex]

if I have determined that the guy that outbid me bought his own item back, i make it a point not to bid on it the second (or third) time through. Maybe he'll rethink not making the sale

[FSRMountain]

Korijo

I am confused, your complaining that you got jacked by someone for $90. Whine that they are "well off" and say your raising a family off of social security. Man you have got your priorities mixed up. Your pretty "well off" if you can spend $265 on taillights, $500 on a hood and place a bid for seats for $500.
Don't whine to us that you got screwed over $90 and we should feel sorry that you raise a family on SS. When your spending 100's of dollars on a car. That crap don't fly here.

Sorry fellow members I just had to rant. I hate people who mention things like that. It's nice to know that my taxes and SS are going to morons like that.

[Kevin Powers]

ouch.

[rdvnac]

FSRMountain, Korijo's profile says he is terminally ill with ALS.

I had a friend die of this illness, which in my darkest moment I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

I believe Korijo is undertaking some car projects as a legacy for his kid(s). If he has ALS, of course he is on SS and most deservedly so. If you begrudge him this pittance--paid out a rate based on his own contributions to SS--then I feel sorry for you.

All I can say is that, on behalf of the decent members of this list, I apologize for your remarks.

[bob174]

Ok, I stayed out as long as I could. All I have to say is that nobody FORCES anyone to buy anything. If you can't control yourself on auctions or are uneducated as to what a reasonable price is, don't use the auction sites.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by rdvnac
FSRMountain, Korijo's profile says he is terminally ill with ALS.

I had a friend die of this illness, which in my darkest moment I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

I believe Korijo is undertaking some car projects as a legacy for his kid(s). If he has ALS, of course he is on SS and most deservedly so. If you begrudge him this pittance--paid out a rate based on his own contributions to SS--then I feel sorry for you.

All I can say is that, on behalf of the decent members of this list, I apologize for your remarks.

Bravo. I seldom look at anyone's profile, thanks for pointing that out. I don't think I was quite as harsh memtioning that if he "learnt..........., again," that the lesson was similar to the old Confusius saw.

However, If I owe an apology, consider it offered. As far a Mountian is concerned, I think he is in a hole deep enough that I would not want to show my face around here ever again. This time, a lesson for all. I wonder what Confusius said about wanton attacks.

[boxstr]

Not the forum for this but I know the person the K is refering to and the items that he purchased. We both have a passion and it is Porsche and 914s, if he liked Corvettes I probably wouldn't know him.
The seller has no idea who is bidding on something it is a level playing field, when it comes to online auctions. They don't have any idea of your income, your health situation, whether you are black or white, male or female.
They are not holding a gun to your head and forcing you to purchase.
I checked back on the auction and the bid history. The bidder who came in a the end of the auction had no feedback and was inexperienced, it is apparent in the bid pattern. And to start with K your first bid was your maximum bid and that was your limit.
That means you got what you wanted, for the amount you ultimately would spend .
Auctions are not the most frugal arena to purchase any item. If you need parts for your project car you have more than enough comrades who would be willing to help out when called upon.
All you need to do is post the items that you need and you will get more replies than you can count on one hand.
I think you had more than enough chances to spell out your displeasure face to face with the seller when you went to his home to pickup the items and at JPs a few days later. Or you could have emailed him directly and told him how you felt.
He is the last person who would use any manipulation to elevate bids in an auction, to start with I don't think he would know how.
Just my $.02 worth.