Gulfstream

[edgemar]

G5 Playaa

[jyl]

I took a multiday trip on a private jet once. Several stops, moving all the time, very efficient, but the pilots liked to climb hard right after lifting off, definitely prioritized fast over comfortable.

[rattlsnak]

^^ too funny. We have two main guys we fly and one is scared to death and wants everything as smooth as possible and the other guy wants a thrill ride. We accommodate each..

[widgeon13]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

^^ too funny. We have two main guys we fly and one is scared to death and wants everything as smooth as possible and the other guy wants a thrill ride. We accommodate each..

Good aircraft to do it in!

[sammyg2]

Stand up in the cockpit? How tall are you?

[gordner]

The Gulfstreams are fabulous machines, but are seriously expensive even by corporate jet standards. I don't think there is a spare for that aircraft that rings in at less than 10K, and spending a million in maintenance is not uncommon.
I work in corporate aviation and we recently received our first G650, we have managed many 450s and 550s before. Gorgeous, but not what I would buy if I had the cash. We run a private 737-500, cost about 10% the purchase price, has 3 times the room, and is in the end less expensive to operate as commercial grade aircraft are designed to make money not cost money, so the parts are reasonable.
And its nice to have a full size bedroom with a king bed, 3 person shower toilet and bidet when you are flying to destination....as well as your full boardroom with seating for 19 at the table. Even the pilots get their own bedroom in the front lol, beside the gourmet kitchen.....

[edgemar]

Which new corporate aircraft is the best bang for the buck? Challenger?

Originally Posted by gordner

The Gulfstreams are fabulous machines, but are seriously expensive even by corporate jet standards. I don't think there is a spare for that aircraft that rings in at less than 10K, and spending a million in maintenance is not uncommon.
I work in corporate aviation and we recently received our first G650, we have managed many 450s and 550s before. Gorgeous, but not what I would buy if I had the cash. We run a private 737-500, cost about 10% the purchase price, has 3 times the room, and is in the end less expensive to operate as commercial grade aircraft are designed to make money not cost money, so the parts are reasonable.
And its nice to have a full size bedroom with a king bed, 3 person shower toilet and bidet when you are flying to destination....as well as your full boardroom with seating for 19 at the table. Even the pilots get their own bedroom in the front lol, beside the gourmet kitchen.....

[Dantilla]

Originally Posted by gordner

We run a private 737-500,.....

How much runway does the Boeing require? We often have Gulfstreams at our local airport with a 5000 ft runway.
One of the biggest advantages of smaller airplanes is the ability to get in and out of smaller airports.

Wow. I fly a four-seater with a propeller in its nose. Did I just call a Gulfstream a "smaller airplane"?

[gordner]

The 650 uses about 6000 feet for take off, In our config the 737 with typical load takes approx. 7000, so definitely a difference, but not a massive one that knocks out a ton of destination airports.

Best bang for the buck for a new corporate right now is probably the legacy line from Embraer. The costs are low overall, purchase and DOC, but the maintenance guys don't love them so far, they do have a few teething pains in operation so far but that will improve. It can also be interesting dealing with Brazil for support, like good luck if there is a soccer game on lol, but overall it is a very impressive package. Their corporate version of their Embraer 175 RJ should really be something, massive cabin size relatively speaking.
Bombardier make a fantastic product, but maintenance costs second to Gulfstream pretty much.

At the end of the day, coming from in the industry, even were I a billionaire I would not own a corporate jet, I would get a platinum Jet card and charter as required. That way you get an aircraft commensurate with the task at hand. Our Gulfstream owners have had to charter smaller airplanes at the other end sometimes to be able to land where they want to go.

And make no mistake, for this class of aircraft millionaire does not cut it, buying one of these things is the easy part, maintaining and hangaring are huge. A G650 size aircraft costs almost 30K Canadian a month just to park inside......average leg burns 70K in fuel, and that is just touching the peak of all the costs involved.

[Rinty]

Nice to get the insider perspective on these aircraft.

[Crowbob]

I am not relating to any of this at all.

It is all very interesting, for sure. But for me and my life, it's all make-believe.

I can't even imagine how somebody would go about managing his life to end up knowing anything about any of it.

Amazing to me. Really amazing.

[rattlsnak]

Sovereign is probably one of the best all around airplanes but others are better suited to specific missions..

[gordner]

The sovereign is a fantastic aircraft in its roll for sure. Cessnas are all work horses really, and fairly cost effective, but not really intercontinental machines except for the Ten, and tens don't run too cheap.

[gordner]

And just to put some perspective on the cost, our G650 will depreciate close to ten million bucks a year for the first five years on top of all the other costs....

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by gordner

At the end of the day, coming from in the industry, even were I a billionaire I would not own a corporate jet, I would get a platinum Jet card and charter as required. That way you get an aircraft commensurate with the task at hand. Our Gulfstream owners have had to charter smaller airplanes at the other end sometimes to be able to land where they want to go.

I would think that justifying ownership vs. a fractional/leasing/jet card scenario would be largely dependent on how much you intend to fly, and your willingness to charter it out (and the level of restrictions you place therein).
Also, I'm not sure about you guys up north, but here in the US I believe the tax benefits for jet ownership are fairly substantial. IIRC, you are (or were at some point) able to write off the entire purchase amount in some cases/scenarios.

Being open to charter ops would certainly help take the sting out of ownership as well. Then, even if you needed to charter different AC yourself periodically, you would still come out ahead if you had one of your own (or more) in the charter fleet.
Say it racked up 1000 hrs. at the end of the year. If 400 of those were yours, and the other 600 were charter, you would likely be well in the black by year end.

Originally Posted by gordner

And make no mistake, for this class of aircraft millionaire does not cut it, buying one of these things is the easy part, maintaining and hangaring are huge. A G650 size aircraft costs almost 30K Canadian a month just to park inside......average leg burns 70K in fuel, and that is just touching the peak of all the costs involved.

I am sure the combined annual variable & fixed costs for G650 ownership are huge, but the above figures sure seem a bit high (even in CAD ). Or maybe things are vastly different there?
Here in the US you should be able to hangar even the biggest corp. jet for $100k a year (likely much less), which translates to $130k-ish CAD per year (say $11k CAD/mo). That is nearly 3x less than what you cited.

Also, with the current prices for Jet-A, I don't think it would even be possible to get to $70k CAD ($50k-ish USD) in fuel costs on a single leg.
Just using round numbers here, a 10hr. flight @ $5/gal. & 500gph equates to $25k USD (or $30K-ish CAD). Even using the extreme end of fuel prices @ $8/gal. you would only be at $40k USD.
That would be stretching it's legs a bit, and likely much farther/longer than the "average" leg as well I would think.

Assuming the same 400-ish annual owner-hours mentioned above, that one flight would probably cost you around $45k USD total, taking all fixed and variable costs into consideration.
That same 10hr flight chartered out would probably gross $90k+ USD.

So, with a decent flight department/charter-ops you should be able to fly for relatively cheap as an owner. With a great flight department/charter-ops, you should be able to actually turn a profit while flying for free.
Of course that $60MM+ barrier to entry for the acquisition cost might catch a few of us out.

Originally Posted by gordner

And just to put some perspective on the cost, our G650 will depreciate close to ten million bucks a year for the first five years on top of all the other costs....

Wow, that sounds a bit high too. To use rounded US $ figures again, I wouldn't think that a $60MM G650 is going to depreciate by nearly $40MM in 5 years. In fact, I remember reading a while ago that some jets were actually appreciating a bit in the first couple years, particularly the Gulfstreams I think. Understandable as the wait time for a new-build is significant. I suppose if one has the means to acquire one (new), depreciation probably isn't a deal-breaker anyway.

[avi8torny]

Originally Posted by edgemar

Which new corporate aircraft is the best bang for the buck? Challenger?

A used one.

PM if you need some suggestions.

[KNS]

Originally Posted by gordner

The 650 uses about 6000 feet for take off, In our config the 737 with typical load takes approx. 7000, so definitely a difference, but not a massive one that knocks out a ton of destination airports.

You also have to consider the gross weight of the aircraft and the small airport runways that can handle those weights.

[widgeon13]

[rattlsnak]

The ratio of buying vs chartering is @250 hours a year. Once you cross over that number, its cheaper to own. (for same size aircraft). I see our flight department numbers every month and it certainly aint cheap but significantly less than posted above. Our hangar fees are roughly $4K a month and base fuel farm is @$2.35 a gallon and we burn on average 400 gallons per hour. Our DOC charges are @$3,500 and hour so we roughly plan for @$5K an hour but fuel is a big factor as fuel in places like BOS is $6-7 a gallon. It averages out to be @$2,000,000 a year for 350 hours NOT including MX which can be VERY expensive and usually another 1M a year.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

I am not relating to any of this at all.

It is all very interesting, for sure. But for me and my life, it's all make-believe.

I can't even imagine how somebody would go about managing his life to end up knowing anything about any of it.

Amazing to me. Really amazing.

+ eleventy million...at least

My cousin married into that type of money...she's a great girl, and her hubby is from a down-to-earth family.
How? Miami (So. FL) commercial real estate...
Private GS, own a private island in the Bahamas, etc.

I can NOT relate...if my mom and aunt hadn't told me about their wealth, then I'd never had a clue...good people they are.