F1 Australia - not surprising

[cairns]

I have zero pity for Alonso. He put himself in this situation.

[Deschodt]

I'm not sure how ALO "put himself in this situation" vs "just has bad luck choosing teams/eras"

Anyway, Whatch'all think about Bottas ?

I'm gonna go on a limb here and say he gives Hamilton a run for his money before this season is over, if the team lets him... I think the guy has a solid head on his shoulder and the Finnish "unshakeability" which HAM does not.... and considering he was recruited pretty late and missing some testing, finishing right behind Lewis in OZ was pretty solid... Sounds like he's got a margin to improve.. Seems like a genuine decent guy too... I think I'm gonna start rooting for him (generally the kiss of death). It's all Vettel and HAM right now, I betcha Mercedes comes back strong in China and leaves Ferrari way behind this time - I'd like to see bottas go after Lewis... After all, he's on a one year contract...

[cairns]

I'm not sure how ALO "put himself in this situation" vs "just has bad luck choosing teams/eras"

If you're going to go arrogant and call someone's bluff you better have all the facts.

Mattiacci and Alonso – the real story | Motor Sport Magazine

And if you're going to throw your boss under the bus after you used what you knew was proprietary information you shouldn't be surprised if he does the same.

from Wiki:

In 2007:

Sunday, 5 August

The morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Alonso tells Ron Dennis he will send incriminating messages exchanged between himself De la Rosa and Coughlan to the FIA, Dennis informs Max Mosley

Tuesday, 7 August

The date of the ICA hearing is confirmed as September 13.[23]
Wednesday, 5 September

The FIA announces that the case will be re-opened following the emergence of new evidence. It is confirmed that the new investigation will take place on September 13, replacing the ICA hearing.[27]

Thursday, 13 September

The second hearing commences. McLaren driver Lewis Hamilton is called as a witness.
Following the hearing it is announced that McLaren is to be fined $100m, have their points stripped from the 2007 Constructor's Championship, and be required to submit their 2008 car designs to the FIA by December 2007, pending exclusion from the 2008 championship if they are found to contain Ferrari's intellectual property. McLaren's drivers are not directly affected.[31]

Friday, 14 September

The FIA issues a statement detailing its reasons behind the sanctions imposed on McLaren. In the statement, the FIA said that emails between the McLaren drivers proved that the British-based team used information leaked from title rivals Ferrari. The FIA statement also said "The emails show unequivocally that both Mr Alonso and Mr de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Mike Coughlan. Both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from Nigel Stepney".[29]
The FIA has also published an email exchange between De la Rosa and Alonso. "All the information from Ferrari is very reliable," De la Rosa wrote to Alonso on 25 March in an exchange about the Ferrari's weight distribution. "It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don't know what post he holds now. He's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi (Räikkönen) was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer and he told him that." In addition, the gas that Ferrari uses to inflate its tyres is discussed, as is the team's pitstop strategy and braking system.[29]
Ron Dennis says he is to decide whether to lodge an appeal against the FIA's penalty, and will make his decision after the Belgian Grand Prix that is taking place that weekend.
Ron Dennis reveals that he learned of the emails and texts between Coughlan, De la Rosa and Alonso after the Hungarian Grand Prix and immediately informed the FIA - resulting in the hearing of 13 September.[43]

Saturday, 15 September

Max Mosley refutes Dennis' claim regarding the emergence of the evidence.[44]

Briatore and Alonso are two peas in a pod. I take nothing away from his driving ability but his ability to make sound business decisions and act in an ethical manner is something I and I great many others have questioned. He didn't get to where he is today due to bad luck.

FWIW I hope you're right on Bottas. He's got a very tough job now.

[Deschodt]

Wow, dude, I apparently stepped on a hand grenade of bottled up feelings here... ;-)

>go arrogant and call someone's bluff

I have no idea where you think I replied arrogantly in that one little sentence, or called a bluff. I was just saying ALO seems to have a knack for picking a good team in an unsuccessful period (Ferrari and now McLaren). You seem to strongly believe "he had it coming" if I'm reading this right. Fine by me, but it's not exactly a provable cause and effect. Ironically he is back at the very team where he once behaved badly (no doubt) and he's kinda holding it together for now....

I'm aware of all the stories in your carefully collated quotations. I think the guy is ruthless but also a great driver... I have no strong feelings one way or another... My saying "I'm not sure how ALO put himself in this situation vs just has bad luck choosing teams/eras, was in no way an attack on you (or your apparent dislike of the guy), rather a simple statement that him picking McLaren Honda based on their history and getting a turd of an engine seems to be bad luck to me... If you meant "he behaved badly at mclaren before therefore nobody else wanted him", then OK, I disagree with that, I think it was a factor of which seats were open when he got tired of Ferrari, F1 managers don't care, if they had a seat they would probably hire him....

I guess I don't believe in Karma, it doesn't work often enough... Seems like you think he deserves it, again fine by me, but seriously, I don't get where you saw arrogance here, was just trying to have a nice friendly F1 chat and you went all nuclear ;-) It's fine, no biggie...

[nota]

Sauber is rumored to be getting the Honda motor next year

[legion]

Originally Posted by nota

Sauber is rumored to be getting the Honda motor next year

Is McLaren paying them to be last?

[cairns]

Descchodt didn't see this till now. This wasn't an insinuation against you in any way at all and I apologize if it sounded like that. I just think Alonso is a victim of his own arrogance (and that of his manager Flavio) not bad luck. It's a shame because he is such a good driver- one of the best IMO.

Sorry if it came out wrong- I didn't think you were being arrogant or in any way rude at all. Please accept my apologies.

[Deschodt]

No worries...s'all good....

Since we're on the topic of Alonso's faults, I stills struggle with the cause and effect. I agree with you that he's been "difficult" at McLaren (although I also think he got screwed by Ron who introduced a co-#1 in Lewis), but the irony here is that he is back at McLaren now! Of all places you'd think would never want him again, they re-hired him...

I think he waited as long as possible at Ferrari (and lost at least one WC to bad strategy, and another to Grosjean trying to decapitate him, might have been the same one) and until this year he's not been wrong in leaving (and even that Vettel win might have been a flash in the pan, we'll see)... When Lewis signed for Mercedes pretty much everyone thought he was nuts, and he's been proven right...

I still think there's a large degree of luck involved, and team principals have been proven to hire the best driver whenever possible, regardless of how difficult to manage they might be... I don't have strong feelings about the guy, but I would like to see HAM, VET, ALO, RIC and a couple others in a competitive car at the same time ;-) Historically that's unlikely, I get that...

[cairns]

I would like to see HAM, VET, ALO, RIC and a couple others in a competitive car at the same time

Would love to see that...especially on tires that can be driven as hard the driver can drive them.....

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by cairns

If you're going to go arrogant and call someone's bluff you better have all the facts.

And if you're going to throw your boss under the bus after you used what you knew was proprietary information you shouldn't be surprised if he does the same.

Briatore and Alonso are two peas in a pod. I take nothing away from his driving ability but his ability to make sound business decisions and act in an ethical manner is something I and I great many others have questioned. He didn't get to where he is today due to bad luck.

Might be wrong but I don't think you have all the facts either if you are quoting something written in a magazine.

I think Briatore and Alonso have nailed the business decisions, have you checked out how much Alonso is worth?

Having worked for or with all the names in question I'd say each one of them is ruthless in their own individual way but I'd put Ron easily at the top of the ethical tree. The way he in which he has departed McLaren is pretty disgraceful for someone that built it up from basically nothing.

Was told a very funny story about him upsetting a ski boat captain in Sicily years ago when his team first started up, then the Mafia got involved and .............

Unfortunately very few nice guys win world championships from inside a car or outside of a car and have all thrown plenty of people under buses along their way to being world champion. There is an expression frequently used in the sport 'no such thing as friends in F1', its usually said in jest but there is a real ring of truth to it.

Bottas and young Mr. Stroll have got the hardest driving jobs in F1 this year. Bottas is Finish so doesn't wear out words like Hamilton does so I doubt Hamilton's mind games will affect his performance too much. If Lance puts in enough effort he has more talent than the sum of his dad's billions so I hope he has a good year and proves his critics wrong.