Why is this breaker failing so quickly?
 

3.5 years ago: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/792472-replacing-outside-breaker.html

Replaced it with one from Home Depot I think. Now the center leg has been slowly dying and as of today pretty much dead.

Any ideas on what could cause this breaker so die to quickly?

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corrosion on the bussbars

Thanks, I sprayed some e- cleaner on it all and is working again. My sense is someday I'll have to have a real electrician come out and clean everything properly and figure out why it goes bad so easily.

Look at the corrosion on the screw at the top of that assembly, is it in a high moisture area? Maybe toss a few desiccant bags in there

If I remember correctly you have a 3 phase t shirt machine that was causing problems? Was it the center phase than too? If so you may want to put a amp probe on that when the shirt machine is running and see what each phase is drawing.

OK, so it worked for a while and then failed again. I pulled the breaker off and the center rail and breaker are very corroded. In fact the rail was enlarged at the front base so I couldn't get the breaker back on. I sanded it down with a small barrel sander on my Dremel tool and it went back on.

Why is the center rail corroding like that? Does not seem like a good thing.

Good memory but that was then, haven't had silk screen running for 2 years now. Actually I used the dryer elements for my Cerakote oven.

Each of the 3 rails is running 120V.

It's the center rail corrosion that is the issue, probably the whole time.

Pics

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Is that the correct breaker for that box? Bi-metallic corrosion perhaps
Use moisture / corrosion block gel that is applied to aluminum wire connections

Tobra is right about that screw. Resistance is heat. kill that box and take those screws out and clean everything up shiny before screwing it together and turning it back on. If you can't do that, you need a new box.

I got the same type of breaker that came out and it's only the center that is heavily corroded but you may be right. I've got some aluminum wire gel, will go put it on.

That thing looks to be toast. You have so much corrosion that you lost your contact force. Which leads to heat, arcing, and then more corrosion.

Measure the breaker voltage drop for each phase at full load....(input side of the breaker to the output side).

Short term I would clean it and add a copper shim with Noalox. Long term I would plan to replace it the breaker AND the box. Or make new lugs.

Shaun what I was saying is check the amperage. See how many amps each leg is drawing. Looks like the center main is corroding or may be burning from an arc. Also the left is corroding too. Is there signs of rust on the housing box? When the breaker is in place is there any play on it or is it tightly secured?

You can call an electrician now, or you can call 9-1-1 later.

Up to you.......

Award for the best advise of the day! If you aren't licensed call someone who is.
That box looks toast. Ante up and be done with it.

edit: the correct saying should be:
You can call an electrician now, or your heirs can call 9-1-1 later.

That doesn't look like corrosion to me, it looks like arcing from poor contact and it's happening on both the center and left breaker. This can cause heat and a fire. I would change out the box and all the breakers. This isn't something to dink around with. Fix it and fix it right before you burn your place down.

I'll do some measurements tomorrow on voltage, will have to get a clamp on meter for amps.

It's been cleaned and the Noalox has been working well. I have some pure copper foil I can use to shim it but will be looking to replace the rails, calling the e- company tomorrow about turn off. It looks like an extremely simple connection from the meter to the breaker.

Breaker is secure once in place, housing box is weathered but pretty clean.

Respectfully, I hope you wouldn't fix a Porsche with the same piece it back together approach to save a few hundred dollars on a major component. Why not just do it right?

This seems so out of character for you. You are so meticulous about Porsche stuff, but seem to be vacillating on doing this very important job properly.

It is toast! Call a professional.

Haha, not at all! :)

Look at what I wrote, I'm calling the electric company about turning off service at which time I can replace the rails and whatever else is necessary in the box. This is an outside box connected to the meter. I have to look at it and take pics tomorrow but it seems to be just a few rails running into the box from the meter that the breaker rails bolt to. My sense is I need a new system that bolts to the rails and which the breaker attaches to. More pics tomorrow to clarify.

This is why I'm a horrible manager, I am the exact opposite of a micro-manager and think everyone should just "get it" when in reality I don't explain enough. Though I am supportive and nurturing so I have that going for me.

But as to leaving it to a professional, I don't trust anyone to do half as good of a job as I can. I've done significantly better plumbing than the people who put the water into this building and the electrical in the ceiling is a mess like I've never seen. This is to say nothing of the professional electrician I hired to wire in the silk screen dryer and I have to wonder if he did anything to create this situation.

I did wire in a buck-boost transformer to go from 208V to 230V for my compressor and I expect this job to be a lot simpler.

And per my usual way of doing things, will be done meticulously. :)

All that said, it does seem to be working nicely just with the cleaning and Noalox but clearly needs to be replaced. I think when you are Dremeling bars leading directly to the meter so you can get the breaker back on, it's time to replace the unit.

What I really want to know more than anything else is how this happened in the first place. Replacing the breaker rails is just mechanical. Troubleshooting the problem is the interesting part.

But really, I was hoping to use these chemically cut copper T-Rex foils that were supposed to go on boy's t-shirts (if you hit them with a mapp torch first they become crazy cool) but market testing found that mom's were concerned about the real foil. You can scrunch up the shirt and then flatten but they retain all the scrunching like Al foil. Very sad, they would have been super cool.

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Shaun,
Could be voltage or current unbalance between the legs. Anything more than 2% is unacceptable. I presume you have commercial power (3ph) going into your building. The unbalance could be from the power being supplied from the utility company or unbalanced loads in your building. A qualified electrician can install a line recorder on your power panel and it records electrical faults and load inbalance at the panel. Not a pretty sight from your posted pics.

Hey Bob! Maybe because this building is in a residential neighborhood (no idea how it got zoned) but I called the e- company years ago and they said this building is single phase 208V.

Each of the three main lines are 120V and run into the breaker panel in the building and are then divided up between the breakers in the panel. So only lights in 3 rooms and one row of outlets gets effected when the center rail goes down.

I wish I knew and electrician I could trust.

FWIW that looks like arcing more so than corrosion bases on what I'm seeing in the pics. it doesn't appear to me that the breaker tabs are making correct contact with the lugs.

I'm sure you'll be getting new breakers when you get the buss bar. Is it that much more money to get a whole new box?

This. Arcing could be caused by corrosion, but it'd have to be pretty bad. In any case, I'd get to the root before it arcs and lights something up.

That T-Rex shirt was one of my sons favorite, Shaun! Thanks for the nice memory....

On the box, I would replace it. As mentioned, checking voltage drop while under load is important but check from the bus bar to the terminal end or from the wiring terminals entering the panel to the terminals leaving the breaker while under load.

If you can get parts for the original box and replace the bus bars and breaker that would be OK but a new panel weatherproof from Home Depot is like $77 in three phase. Add on the cost of the breaker and misc hardware. The only problem with replacement is there may be some screwing around to make it work but it would probably be worth it.

The old breaker and bus bars really look as though someone in the past had pulled that breaker under load and not corrosion but I cannot imagine anyone doing that.

Cheers,

Hey Bill,

Fond memories of days gone by but better ones are always ahead.

What may complicate getting a whole new box is this one houses my floor and the one below me. 2 different meters running independently into the same box with independent main breakers. I have a single 3 pole 100A breaker and so does the other meter. And they are oriented vertically so it would be a lot of work to add a whole new box.

More tomorrow.

Ok so we agree it's arcing now why? Again check amperage. Also for voltage go phase to phase aacross all three phases. If one set read nothing across 2 phases than it is single phase 208. If it reads 208-220 across all three sets it's 3 phase.

Personally from looking at the pictures it doesn't look like the center leg is making good contact. It appears burn low on the post whereas the left and right have markings that are about center on lug.

Some quick pics of the box. I'll have to look closely for a manufacturer. As as long the power is turned off, it looks like a 10 minute job to swap in a new a bar system and that's while having a beer and some hot wings. I think my biggest concern will be the bees. Saw a wasp and a few yellow jackets yesterday too.

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Look how clean that one below looks. Maybe you are just over taxing yours. It sounds like you are using a residential hookup for semi industrial purposes.

Definitely the 'environment' causing this. Possibly seal the box with weather stripping on the lid, caulk any opening or hole inside the box as well.

Quick note, busy day, raining on and off so no outside measurements. Center line has been fine all day so that's good. Just measured voltage at inside box:

122.1
122.2
121.6

Going to HD tonight and will get a clamp on amp meter.

Ok new pictures do make it 3 phase unless something funny is going on in that junction box. Again if you read phase to phase you should get 220. Yes your feeders are shot and I'm not sure if you can buy that part. Usually you would replace the whole thing. Can you get a picture of the wires street side going to the feeder pipe. Just curious are you the owner or a renter/lease holder

So the lines from the pole go into the left box, through the center box to the meters in another box and back to the main breakers?
Success of this will depend on whether you can source that buss bar assembly separately.

Although it would be great, not many residences around here have 3 phase power going to them.

phase to phase is 211V. When I called Nstar a few years ago they were very clear that I had single phase 208V.

I wish it were easier to turn the e- off, I could probably make new feeders.

More pics tomorrow.

Measure these voltages:

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I see why you don't want to simply change out the whole box. What a monstrosity.