What to do???
 

I bought a car recently for my 16 year old son. It was from this forum, and the seller seemed quite respectable (I researched his online persona, he does interesting and respectable work, etc.) I had the PPI done at a shop of his suggestion, and I researched that the shop is actually an avid Porsche community enthusiast, and really well regarded. The PPI came back very positive, so I bought the car.

I made it clear to the PPI shop that I had no additional budget to work on the car, and this was not a project car. It was a complete car purchase for my 16 year old son and we wanted dependability, reliability, and safety as top concerns.

It arrived yesterday (shipped, delivered to my mechanic's shop) and the mechanic did a review of the car and it's like a different car was delivered (not the case, the VIN matches). There are countless problems... the front clip has been welded on, ABS doesn't work, major oil leaks, major issues in the interior and trunk, rust, no fender lining or any underbody pieces, ill fitting rubber, many parts are just thrown together, etc.

The car doesn't match the PPI. I offered to ship it back to the seller immediately and pay shipping both ways, and he said its sold and now my problem.

I spoke with the shop that did the PPI and the owner was also shocked because he knew a lot about the car and thought it had all been communicated to me. I believe its possible the mechanic was involved in helping the seller sell the car, and I mentioned this to the shop owner and he is looking into it.

None of the issues are on the PPI, in fact the PPI is all green except for license plate lights missing, windshield wiper fluid not operating, and a few extras.

What should I do? File suit against the seller? Work out something with the PPI shop? I don't want the car. The PPI shop owner is trying to connect with the seller to convince him to take the car back with my terms (I pay shipping both ways) but not sure if the seller will respect that offer as he is clearly trying to wash his hands of it.

I don't want to yet post the seller and the shop, as I am hopeful this will work out. If you saw the ad (and how its represented so positively) you would be shocked about the actual car being delivered.

Kind of bummed,
Kris

That is tough.

It seems like the first step is to see where the disjoint actually occurred. The name of the actual person that did the PPI, and the person who gave you the results...It all sounds quite suspect, but don't attribute to malice that which could be explained by incompetence...

I would suggest you start taking pictures of all the issues for documentation... especially those that don't match the PPI.

I'd also suggest you take the car to a dealer of the same manufacturer (I have no idea what kind of car you are talking about...) and have them do another PPI.

At that point you'll have documentation that doesn't match documentation from them.
The conflicting documentation can be valid as evidence in court.
Also, depending on what state... it is against the law... look up Fraudulent Misrepresentation.

The seller lives in both Indiana and South Carolina and the PPI shop is in South Carolina.

It sounds like the person who did the PPI was working in collusion with the seller if they "missed" all the things wrong with the car.

As the seller has already told you to go pound sand it's time to see a lawyer and see what your legal recourse is in getting your money back. As the business that did the PPI misrepresented the car they may be your best bet in any chance of recovery.

Oh Boy.

The PPI guy probably has liability that is limited to what you paid him, check your work order/contract.

The seller will say 'the buyer had a PPI done, not my problem' (and I would agree). Also, you say the PPI shop was told you wanted a driver, not a project. Was the seller told the same thing? If not, I'm not sure what facts you can rely on to blame the seller for any of this.

I think a reasonable solution is to ask the seller for a refund, and you have to eat the other costs. But if he declines, you don't have many viable options.

Flip it and take your loss.

You are more calm and patient than I would be in that case.
I don't know exactly how much I would over-react, but there would most definitely be over-reaction taking place.
I'D BE pissed!

Capture now everything you can from the seller. Emails, photos, the advertisement before he can erase it, etc, you will have to show that he fraudulently misrepresented the car to you. If for example he said the tires are new and they are in fact totally worn out, that would be fraudulently misrepresenting the car. Most states consider used cars to be sold "as is" with an exception if the seller knowingly and fraudulently misrepresented the condition. You'll need that documentation for when the lawyer gets involved, because it sounds like it is headed that way. I'm no lawyer but used to have a dealer's license, fortunately I never had this issue because I was honest in my dealings. I'm not sure how much exposure the PPI shop has, but I would think they would have some culpability.

Seller sounds like a sleaze, but you likely have little recourse if he doesn't agree to take it back.....SOME people :(. What type of car, and approx how much did you spend? Sometimes ya just gotta move on...

Oh yeah....if he doesn't "make it right".... post your story far and wide and name names :)

Good luck!

How does a front clip get welded on to another car without changing VIN numbers?
Shenanigans
I would approach seller with all the documented info, and if full restitution is not achieved,
Then Lawyer up and get DMV involved.
I would like to hear Sellers side as well.

What is the car model, mileage and the price you paid?

Not as uncommon as you might think here. I won't buy a car without looking at it firsthand anymore.

^^^^^ This^^^^^^ I've traveled 3 states away to buy a $5K car.

Why? - because I've been burned too.

I dunno, yo. You pay a shop to do a couple hundred bucks to do a PPI and they don't catch huge issues? The purpose of a PPI is almost entirely to save a long trip, and in the cases of these cars, check for broken studs. We're all capable of checking for rust and judging how the car drives in person.

Though I did say don't jump to nefarious conclusions, I think the buyer did fine due diligence, and it sure seems like there was intentional deception by more than one actor. Crazy. If I was the owner of that shop I would be highly motivated to get to the bottom of things.

Or, ya know...it's all a lie...

Im really sorry this happened to you...


There's always two perspectives to every story. Not saying buyer is wrong, but I sense expectations were wholly unrealistic...

No one buys a 30 year old car, and expects it to be a reliable daily driver on no budget...

That's just not what these cars are...

Post some pics on here...

The front clip was replaced? Or some part was welded?

I almost sold my 930 when the motor started acting up. Truth be told, the car is in really good shape and I did tons of work on it. I didn't point out any of the good stuff when attempting to sell, pointed out all the bad. And I made it painfully obvious that under no circumstance would I take the car back, even if demons flew out of the exhaust.

Pretty much turned buyers off, I suspect, and got low offers. I'm ok with that.

But I did that intentionally. To avoid exactly this situation.

You buy a car unseen? That's problem lays at the buyers feet... you are taking a gamble. The risk of mismatched expectations is huge.

Talking about lawsuits is silly nonproductive talk, unfortunately. I have tons of judgements in my line of business, good luck collecting.

Take a deep breath, learn, fix the car, and make it a life lesson...

So sorry...

Now, if there were true fraud on the part of the shop... you may have some recourse...

Post some pics of the car....

rjp

I will post the original ad, the pictures of the car, and the PPI report tomorrow. Will also include all names/details. Hoping to see if this can be resolved first.

You aren't talking about the 944 or 914 that were recently listed from South Carolina?

If this is a $50,000 car I would have different expectations than for a sub $10000 car...

Curious...

Sounds like the car was misrepresented by the mechanic doing the PPI.

I'd do everything I could to get the car returned back to the original owner.
How much did you pay for it? (rhetorical question) Is it worth engaging a lawyer?

I really can't understand why people think it's OK to do stuff like this.

But... Same here. The last car I bought "remotely" was from Malaysia. It looked great in the photos but when it arrived :(. Never again.

I'm hoping for both parties it's simple stuff that can get fixed... Most things can be fixed...

If what the OP says is accurate, it's blatant. I'd be trying for the seller's head as well.

rjp

Been here, done this right down to the wtf PPI in a different state. Had to lawyer up, travel, depositions, but stumbled into a fellow pelican who had bought the car prior to me (was horribly misrepresented to him too) and refused delivery. Still took 6 months out of my life to force feed this car back to the seller but he ate the turd and paid through the nose.

It sucks.

Spoke with shop today. The owner said he acknowledges that the PPI was a real **** job, they messed up, and that going forward they are suspending PPI's and no longer doing them. He said he had one other issue in the last month related to PPI's too, and will refund me on the $200 fee.

When I asked about all the issues on the car, ABS not working, interior problems, front clip, leaking engine, missing fender liner, poor wiring, missing airbag, misinstalled wiring/headliner/etc. all the issues NOT reported on the PPI, he said:

"What do you expect, the car has 180k miles and you've got to think it will have issues".

He also said:

"Do you think for $200 I am going find all the problems with the car?"

He said if the car was local he would agree to work on it but he won't pay to have a mechanic work on these items they missed in my location.

So basically the seller is out of it, the shop won't stand behind their inspection, and I'm out the $$$ to repair.

Any legal wording on his invoice? What did you sign prior to having the work done?

I will defer to MRM if he weighs in, but in my mind you're barking up the wrong tree. I do not see you getting the 'necessary' work done on the PPI's dime.

Go to the seller and try to work a deal that hurts less than re-selling the car.

What do you think your loss is if you honestly represent the car for what it is and flip it?

Um, I took my 2015 Nissan into the dealership for a free inspection and they found some bad bushings.
So yeah, for $200 I expect them to put it up on a rack and spend at least 30 minutes with a flashlight (seems like all the defects could have been found in that time frame).


I'm a pretty calm guy but I have to agree with sammy on this one.

Yep, I have rolled the dice on a few low dollar internet purchases but nothing as big as a car... I learned my lesson by looking at local cars (with picture) on the internet then going to see them in person... egad you can hide a multitude of defects in blurry internet pictures!

Still would like to know what car we are talking about here...

Maybe I am too pragmatic, but my expectations of a car with 180k miles are very low. I would expect it to basically stop working at any moment...

To the OP...

You really need to clarify what car we are talking about and what you paid... it makes a world of difference to strengthen your position if its an SC with 180k miles that you paid 35 k for... vs a 944 or boxster that's worth $4000 on a good day with 180k...

Most shops will no longer do PPI's for exactly this reason... No upside. Most inspections, whether home or car, explicity state that your damages are limited to the cost of the inspection. If its doesn't say that, you may have legal options. But again, pursuing legal options on a 150k$ car vs a 5k$ car is quite different...

Agree with what others posted, best to look at a car in person... if just to avoid this situation.

Bo


Would this happen to be it? (180k miles and from Arizona)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/941603-1990-porsche-964-manual-180-k-miles.html

Seller is a dealer? Seems to sell lots of cars and parts... Odd that all for sale ads have been wiped clean...

Whats wrong with the car, perhaps we call all help???

As an aside, if this is the car... please note all 964's leak oil like sieves, unless recently rebuilt... its the nature of that car. Also, any 964 with 180k would likely need a lot of money to put it right... that's a ton of mileage on a 964... a ton.

Porsches leak (or at least seep). 99.5% of them... Its all fixable. Any car with 180k miles is going to need lots of love (and $$$).

If you paid a lot, and this is the car, then you have every right to be upset... If you didn't pay a lot, just fix it and enjoy...

My first 911 was a 76 911s bought from a used car lot in the middle of winter, while in college. Paid $9000. Soon after, realized the car leaked, smoked on start up, grinded into 2nd gear, had rust, etc, etc. Still loved it, drove it everywhere, and slowly fixed it on a students budget. I miss that car. If the car you bought runs, just drive it!

Life is short!!!

As others have said, you really need to look at the terms of your agreement with the shop that conducted the PPI. That should contain the substance of your agreement with them and if they are or are not liable for things if they somehow fail to uncover. If you don't have a written agreement with them then it will be incredibly hard to enforce some standard on them unless the state has regulatory guidance or law on what is to be covered in a PPI and also unless that guidance or law speaks as to liability.

My .02 and not intended as legal advice. I'm not licensed in any of the referenced states.

Of course this also swings on the type of car purchased and for how much. That info will seriously help in the quality of advice you receive both here and with a lawyer. You may be at a price point where the juice is not worth the squeeze. That sucks but it is also reality (been there recently myself).

I would totally disagree that having 180k absolves the seller from being honest and the shop from being competent. Particularly with a collector type car. I’ve had cars with over 200k that were in better condition than most cars with 20k. Honesty shouldn’t be conditional.

It was a $35,000 purchase for a 964, that I was looking to buy for my son as his first car.

Agree that making a list of the issues on the car is not dependent on purchase price. The PPI is the buyer's defense against an overly enthusiastic seller.

I believe he stated that the car was located in South Carolina. And, I doubt anyone is going to be buying a 964 Cab for their 16 year old. Likely, it was a 944 or 924. Good father son project.

I'm of the thinking that buying a car sight unseen is rolling the dice, heavily. These situations rarely have a good outcome. You need to really expect and plan for the worse.

Oops, I guess I was wrong. This whole thing is wrong on many levels, IMHO. Sorry you had to learn the hard way.

There is no legal contract on the PPI form, just a lot of green circles for all the items and then notes saying - needs license plate lights, washer squirter inop, cv boots torn

My experience was that when it comes to collector cars, far too many people consider honesty to be optional.

I didn't buy my old 911S thinking it would be collectable. Things just evolved that way. When it happened, it was better for me to leave that scene. Life is better now..

Lawyer....

If the front clip has been welded back on you need to have a body integrity done. It might not be road safe. Was it advertised as a salvage title? Usually that amount of extensive repair indicated it was in a major accident.

So sorry to hear...

A 180,000 mile 964 is worth 15-17k on a good day... Not demeaning the 964, but I have looked at nice ones, with 100k miles for sale for $19k...

No but it certainly does impact whether its worth going too far down the road to fix this mess.

At $35k its surely worth trying to make this right.

The thing that strikes me most is the non-functioning ABS. That may be a place to hang your hat on a complaint. For a shop to do a PPI it seems to me to almost substitute for a safety/license inspection. If you can't count on them to ID the most basic of safety issues then they have serious issues. The problem there is several southern states do not require annual inspections so any correlation will be hard to make.

Yep...the OP didn't ask for my list of WTFs?, so I won't.

To the OP....this board can be an absolute gold mine of sound advice, but I honestly don't think you want to hear mine....I can be brutally honest with my thoughts :).

Good luck however!