OT - What do you think and feel about this,...

[Sternn]

This is quite an OT post, but sinces its already here...

I have a website setup that is updated daily with links to relevant news sites and articles dealing with this exact issue.

http://www.theaxisofevil.net


The bottom line is this, under the Bush administration we have given up ALL of our constitutional rights. The last one that many of the people on the message boards I frequent joked about is that we at least had the 10th Ammendment and Bush hadn't tried to take that one yet. Then last month he sent DEA agents to raid a California State funded medicianl marijuana farm, a farm created after the state voters made it legal, thus imposing a Federal law over top of a state law and interferening with state commerce.

Anyway, I am getting off on a tangent. Bush has taken away rights, re-written US policy to fit his own agenda, and made our country into the exact thing our founding fathers left England to escape.

It's not that anyone is FOR Iraq or Al Queda, it's that we fear what Bush will do to us more than what they will do to us. However using a classic Lennin technique, the Bush administration makes the arguement either your with us, or your some terrorist, leaving little room to argue the issues with his policies.

The biggest policy issue right now is the 'pre-emptive strike'. This is a first in the world, and definately in America. When in our society is it acceptable to do this? When your neighbor appears to be buying guns down the street can you kick in his door and shoot him on the premise that one day he might shoot you? Can we arrest people before they actually commit any crimes? Now under Bush people can be arrested for what they say, think, or possess, even though it might have a dual purpose use. Under that line of logic, all men could be arrested for having the tools to commit rape, and all mechanics could be arrested for having the tools to steal cars.

Can we attack any country that hates us merely because we fear they may try and rise up against us? Where does that stop? Right now over 3/4 of the world is against us, so do we now have the right to start invading every country that speaks out against the US merely because we fear they may have a dissident opinion on our views?

The classic legal argument of 'the slippery slope' applies here more than ever. Once you start taking away rights for any reason, and attack countries BEFORE they actually do anything, you set a precendent to do the same, but for less each time. In the end, we become what we fear at the expense of our childrens futures.

-S (Why yes I studied constituional law for a few years in college )

[overkill]

I dont want to estimate but the is a good amount of people(even the pope) that says we shouldnt go to war and there is a good amount of people that says we should. If we are not suppose to go to war then how do we stop the terrorism? If we have "bigger fish to fry",... whats bigger than the Alqeada terrorizing the US with biochemical weapons and blowing **** up? I dont get it.

[overkill]

Originally posted by Sternn
This is quite an OT post, but sinces its already here...

I have a website setup that is updated daily with links to relevant news sites and articles dealing with this exact issue.

http://www.theaxisofevil.net


The bottom line is this, under the Bush administration we have given up ALL of our constitutional rights. The last one that many of the people on the message boards I frequent joked about is that we at least had the 10th Ammendment and Bush hadn't tried to take that one yet. Then last month he sent DEA agents to raid a California State funded medicianl marijuana farm, a farm created after the state voters made it legal, thus imposing a Federal law over top of a state law and interferening with state commerce.

Anyway, I am getting off on a tangent. Bush has taken away rights, re-written US policy to fit his own agenda, and made our country into the exact thing our founding fathers left England to escape.

It's not that anyone is FOR Iraq or Al Queda, it's that we fear what Bush will do to us more than what they will do to us. However using a classic Lennin technique, the Bush administration makes the arguement either your with us, or your some terrorist, leaving little room to argue the issues with his policies.

The biggest policy issue right now is the 'pre-emptive strike'. This is a first in the world, and definately in America. When in our society is it acceptable to do this? When your neighbor appears to be buying guns down the street can you kick in his door and shoot him on the premise that one day he might shoot you? Can we arrest people before they actually commit any crimes? Now under Bush people can be arrested for what they say, think, or possess, even though it might have a dual purpose use. Under that line of logic, all men could be arrested for having the tools to commit rape, and all mechanics could be arrested for having the tools to steal cars.

Can we attack any country that hates us merely because we fear they may try and rise up against us? Where does that stop? Right now over 3/4 of the world is against us, so do we now have the right to start invading every country that speaks out against the US merely because we fear they may have a dissident opinion on our views?

The classic legal argument of 'the slippery slope' applies here more than ever. Once you start taking away rights for any reason, and attack countries BEFORE they actually do anything, you set a precendent to do the same, but for less each time. In the end, we become what we fear at the expense of our childrens futures.

-S (Why yes I studied constituional law for a few years in college )

TRUE, but what about Alqeada?!?!?! They attacked us!!!! The US? Do we let them? Sadam is supposivly aiding them, so does that mean that we should take him out? I was under the impression that this was a war against terrorism. The Alqeada. We found out that sadam was aiding them and now we fear that he might do somthing stupid so we are,.................... OK OK OK, now I understand you about arresting without performing the crime. What about Alqeada though? They hit us. War against them?

[Sternn]

The trick to stopping terrorism is not giving the enemy reasons to become terrorists. Invading their country, sending in military forces to occupy it for the next couple of decades, and in the process killing thousands of innocent civilians definately is not the way to keep more terrorists from rising up.

The Bush administration wants us to believe terrorists hate the US because of 'our way of life'. There is nothing farther from the truth. In fact, most terrorists like Iraqi's do not have a problem with American people, just our government. The only problem is our government will not listen to their issues unless they do something drastic.

Bin Laden has ONLY one request from the US, a request that does not get broadcasted in the US media, but if you check the various international media sites (i.e. British or Australian) they pretty much lay it all out for you.

The current wave of terrorists want us to stop propping up the Israeli government. All the weapons, tanks, guns, etc. the Israelis have they get from us in one way or another. They use these to fight the war against the Palestinians. If the US did not give them weapons and money then Israeli would be forced into having talks as oppsed to sending in armored units every time they want something. Whether you agree with either side of this conflict the bottom line is it's not our fight to begin with. By meddling in someone elses war, we have brought the war home, and if we were to quit meddling and push for talks, then the terrorists will go away.

Don't think its true? When was the last time England had muslims attack them? Or France? Or Germany? I could go on, but the bottom line is the EU supports peace talks and refuses to send military support to the region. We send billions, plus guns, and troops to setup training camps for Israel, then claim to be neutral.

If we quit screwing around in other peoples affairs, we can effectively take away their cause for terrorism. Washington, Jefferson, and Madison all wrote extensive articles and books on this very subject, and told us what would happen if we did not heed the warning, and guess what? Here we are.

In the imortal words of Jefferson:

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none."

-S

[Dougster]

Very well put! Our forefathers are rolling over in their graves!
Freedoms are being taken away at an alarming rate! Sheep won't care... They don't know the meaning of freedom. Real American's will always fight for our own freedoms!
There is way too many unaswered questions...29 warnings before 9/11 yet Bush refuses to let the AMERICAN people find out the truth about that fateful day!
We do know 15 of the 19 were Saudi's, not Araqi's...Yet he allowed 2 dozen of Bin Ladins Saudi family to be quickly rushed out of the country right after that event....The Bushes have always been good partners with the oil rich Saudi's...
What ever happened to the Anthrax attacks? Why were only Demorcrats or people apposed to Bush targeted?
Bush SR was the head of the CIA...He job was to execute people against his agenda...
The government refused Vietnam Vets calls for help with Agent Orange health issues...The same happened with The Gulf war syndrome...The Government loves to preach Patriotism, when they need a dirty job done, then quickly forgets the vets in their time of need...
I trust NOTHING any Bush has ever said...Its all the most corrupt government this once great country has ever known...It all boils down to money...The root of all evil...In this case oil...Bush & his corupt croonies must control it, and when we kill for it, the cycle continues...over & over...What a sad state of affairs...yes, our forefathers are rolling over in their graves...

[overkill]

So,... why is the US meddling with their war?

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by lambic2000
If you don't think a leader of another country should be removed on the grounds of plotting assassinations on leaders or former leaders of another country, then you do believe in anarchy.

Stephen

Stephen,
The U.S. has been known to plot assasssinations, also the governments of France and Germany have voted against going to war, would you categorize those countries as long haired, pot smoking, peaceniks?

[hoff944]

How have our freedoms been stripped anymore since the Bush administration? I am definitely in favor of a limited federal government, and I am not a fan of TSA, but I can't see how our freedoms have been stripped anymore than they were before the Bush administration.

So basically, if we are attacked, we must have done something wrong that deserved the murdering of thousands of innocent civilians, thus we should never attack anyone and always be extra careful we never offend anyone in anyway again? Used to, it was the country that was being bomded dictator's/leader's fault for the loss of innocent civillian lives. Not the country that was attacking.

Also the United States launched a military assault on Germany first in WW2.

[Sternn]

Money, oil. During the early 1900's we had no allies in the region. Britian cam ein later and gave up is 'territories' (i.e. land it had aquired through attacking other countries) and gave the area now known as Israel to the Jews to help 'compsenate' for the horrors they endured during WW2.

A great gesture, if only the land was really theirs to give. Britian has been giving land back left and right, mainly because the people who lived there for hundreds of years before Britan conquered it were rising up (becoming terrorists by todays definition). So, they push all the arab people who were living there off into the desert and give it to the new Israelis. This sparks tensions in the area and has caused more violence than any other land conflict in history.

Then we come along. We have no friends or allies in that region and we see and underdog, a white underdog that many Americans can relate with. Jews are a significant part of America, and people understand their religion because it is based on the Old Testment, a book Chrisitians (the mass majority in America) also read, therfore they have similar spiritual doctorines as well.

So we start sending guns, bombs, and money to help out our new allies. Only problem is, they turn around in the late 60's and do their own pre-emptive strike, and double their size. We however have been funding this and to save face, justify it. That was the time they knew we were pretty much in the same boat because if anyone says their actions are wrong, then America who is funding those actions also is liable, making us look like bad people.

To save face our country has been pouring billions (about 15-20 billion a year - this year its 30 billion due to new security concerns) into their war hoping to crush the arabs who want freedom and their land back. They haven't been able to do it in 50 years with hundreds of billions of dollars and the newest technology, but to stop now would mean we would have to say to the world we are wrong, so we continue to fight a war that today doesn't mean as much to our country as it did when we first started the venture (since we now have many Arab allies).

Bush attacking any area in the middle east is bad for many reasons:

1. He appears to be attempting to get the US involved even more, even closer to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict just so we can use troops and our firepower (once again, 50 years of this hasn't worked, but Bush appears to think US forces can do what Israel can't)

2. By 'liberating' Iraq we can free ourselves from Arab oil (since we will have our own imperialistic arab territory) and therefore be able to be more aggressive in our Israel stance without fear of financial reprocussion (remember the gas shortage of the 70's? The arab world cut off gas supplies and brought our country to a screeching halt because of this very same issue - Bush appears to want to take away this power from the Arabs).

Admitted, its a good plan, if your playing Master Of Orion and your trying to conquer the universe, but the problem is in real life, you can't just go wiping out a group of people because you want financial security, or you don't like the fact you must on occassion say you were wrong.

This whole thing is like that episode of Happy Days where Fonzi can't say the words 'Im Sorry'. Our administration has the same complex, and is willing to sacrifice American lives before they try to talk about what the real issues are.

[ae1969]

Sternn.... you are a most eloquent writer/speaker....

If my left hand was not injured....I would echo your sentiments.

I just hope it all works out in the end......

its a sad day.

[overkill]

WHAT A CROCK OF ****!!!!! HOW ****ING HARD IS IT!!!!! WHAT IS THE BIG FRIGGIN DEAL ABOUT SAYING SORRY??? CROCK.

[overkill]

FRIGGIN DIVIDE UP THE LAND AND RESOURCES, WIPE ALL SLATES CLEAN AND START OVER. COME THE HELL ON!!!

[Z-man]

Originally posted by ae1969
It has not been moved to OT...cause this board is no longer being moderated (aka missing Lordgrommit).... just hope Z-man doesnt read this....

Hehe: I have been watching this thread, and modified some previous posts to try to eliminate some of the personal attacks. Just haven't had time to really digest what's going on until now.

[Moderator mode on] At first, I thought of moving this thread to the OT Dungeon, but decided not to. The whole "world crisis" going on now is difficult for many to come to terms with. It is an important topic and even though it's OT, I feel we should keep it here in the 944 forum. Obviously, many of us have strong opinions about this. (Just don't expect all OT topics to stay here! hehe)

I'd like to keep this thread here, but we all need to understand that personal attacks and bickering and ranting...etc. will not be tolerated. An exchange of political views, opinions, and discussions of such is great: let's keep it at that level. So let's all be mature about this topic, please.
[Moderator mode off]

[Personal opinion]
So, what's my view? Like Overkill, I'm scared, shocked, and angered. I live in NJ, in the Shadow of where the Twin Towers once stood. On my daily route to work, I pass a commuter lot. I will never forget passing that lot on Sept. 12th, 2001, and seeing all the cars that were still there from the previous day. It was a somber reminder of the many who died when the towers came down. Perhaps because I live so close to Ground Zero, my feeling about this current crisis with Iraq/N. Korea...etc. is different. Had the attacks occured elsewhere, I may not have been as effected.

For me the bottom line is this: I do not know what are the proper means, but the roots of terrorism must be stopped. These roots include the current Iraqi regime, as well as those who openly and secretly support terrorist organizations like Al Queda. Do I think war is the answer? My conservative side says, "Yes." (How long can we tolerate this?) Do I think the UN inspectors need more time and that diplomacy is the solution? My "fear of war" side says "Yes." (War is hell.) Somewhere between the two sides is the answer.

Confusing and disturbing times we live in today.
-Zoltan.

[CJFusco]

*standing ovation for Sternn*

Finally, someone that agrees with me and knows enough about world politics to back my position with some serious literate firepower. Although we have different points about why the U.S. shouldn't be getting into this situation, our over-all opinion is much the same.

"I am all for racial profiling, wire tapping, electronic surveilance etc. to weed out and stop these people. "

Are you insane, man? What would stop the government from watching us all in our homes or listening to all our phone conversations? What would stop them from arresting any and all dissenters, even those simply critical of governmental policy, such as yours truly? We've already seen this beginning in the form of the new "Patriot Act," in which the government has the right to arrest and detain any citizen for any reason for any amount of time WITHOUT EVEN TELLING THEM WHAT THEY WERE ARRESTED FOR! This is unconstitutional, and it scares the crap out of me. The government is slowly stripping away the freedoms that it dubiously claims to be protecting. Haven't you read Orwell, Bradbury, or Vonnegut?

[Hawktel]

Like building a car, in politics, you should use the K.I.S.S. principle.

Pres. Dubya, elected with a hanging chad, who can't squash his own daughters underage drinking charges, furthers a 50 year old plot of securing oil for the US? That people are only learning about now?

I apologize thats not worth considering Sternn. Its a nice model and pretty to look at, but not realistic.

I don't want a War, or Sadam to have WMD, or him hanging around for the next generation to deal with. I'll settle for 2 outa the three.

Ed Hachtel

[SoCal Driver]

Originally posted by SoCal Driver
** Post deleted: it offered no contribution to the discussion at hand ** -Z-man.

Niether did the **** "oh my poor wittle hurt ears you are a bad boy" crap!

** Edited for content again. -Z-man. **

[scottmandue]

I could dig up the history books but the fighting over Israel has been going on for thousands of years. Long before America was even established or anyone had any interest in black gold.

Why do you think it is called Israel? Look it up.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by SoCal Driver
Niether did the **** "oh my poor wittle hurt ears you are a bad boy" crap!

** Edited for content again. -Z-man. **

SoCal: tread lightly, and chill out. Please: refrain from personal attacks and improper language.

Thanks,
-Z.

[CJFusco]

Simple Freshman-year psychology tells us that once an attacker has exhausted their argument, they ofren resort to personal attacks to deal with their frustration. And yet we so-called "hippies" and "commies" keep our cool and defend our positions with facts and rational ideals.

Funny how that works out, isn't it?

(and for those of you who might interpret this as a 'personal attack,' I want to point out that I am not targeting anyone and am not calling anyone names or questioning the integrity of their education)

[SoCal Driver]

Guess I'm supposed to say nice warm and fuzzy things about all you liberal socialist wankers -- NOT!

Most of you are blinded by years of liberally slanted public schooling. Yes it was my hippy generation that has taught you these falsehoods. I didn't buy it then and I sure as heck don't buy it now.

Most of you have lived a very good life on the moldering remains of your grandfathers still laying in foreign soil. You have no idea of the sacrifices necessary to maintain your warm and fuzzy life style. Your liberal blindness is your short coming.

You are just a small part of a world that still uses aggression and dominance to survive. If you don't have the guts you don't keep what you have at the most.

Live Free or Die

I'm out of here. Fix your own damn cars.