Ken Burns' latest masterpiece started tonight

[Shaun @ Tru6]

First episode: Déjà Vu (1858-1961) | The Vietnam War | Explicit Language Version | PBS

Years ago on recommendation from Danimal16, I read H.R. McMaster's (current National Security Advisor) Dereliction of Duty which was an excellent, powerful retelling of how we got involved in Vietnam. And the seed of our friendship so it's a great book.

Just finished the first episode, definitely something worth watching. Going to reread the book again along with the documentary.

[Seahawk]

'The Vietnam War' is a masterpiece --- and a model for assessing our history - George Will

Many Americans' moral vanity is expressed nowadays in their rage to disparage.

They are incapable of measured judgments about past politics -- about flawed historical figures who were forced by cascading circumstances to make difficult decisions on the basis of imperfect information. So, the nation now needs an example of how to calmly assess episodes fraught with passion and sorrow. An example arrives September 17.

For 10 nights on PBS, Ken Burns' and Lynn Novick's "The Vietnam War," 10 years in the making and 18 hours in length, tells the story of a war "begun in good faith by decent people, out of fateful misunderstandings," and "prolonged because it seemed easier to muddle through than admit that it had been caused by tragic decisions" during five presidencies.

[GH85Carrera]

We have the series programmed to record on our DVR.

Right now I am watching the old documentary from BBS called the World at War. It was produced in 1973 and has lots of interviews of the people that were there. It is interesting to see the detail and a perspective that is is not the typical American point of view. In school all they really taught us was America entered the war and whipped the Germans the the Japanese pretty much on out own. Of course the Russians teach that they were the ones to beat the Germans.

The BBS series is interesting in how they spend an entire episode on the politics of what was happening in Germany. And one entire hour on just the Japanese point of view and of course one on the Russians.

There were plenty of bad decisions made in WW2 that were pretty stupid. The same thing happened in Vietnam. Nixon proved we could have ended the war in short order by bombing the North until they came to the table and signed the peace treaty on January 27, 1973. The fact that they (North Vietnam) had no intention of really stopping the war had nothing to do with reality of the era.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

First episode: Déjà Vu (1858-1961) | The Vietnam War | Explicit Language Version | PBS

Years ago on recommendation from Danimal16, I read H.R. McMaster's (current National Security Advisor) Dereliction of Duty which was an excellent, powerful retelling of how we got involved in Vietnam. And the seed of our friendship so it's a great book.

Just finished the first episode, definitely something worth watching. Going to reread the book again along with the documentary.



In addition to McMaster's book, a fantastic companion read is McNamara's In Retrospect.

In addition to McMaster's book, a fantastic companion read is McNamara's In Retrospect.



McMaster's book was written after McNamara's. McNamara wrote from his experiences and memory. McMaster wrote based upon declassified documents, that were not available during McNamara's work. The correlation of the two books is fascinating and very eye opening. Sad that a string of poor decisions had such a huge impact on the American people, understandable, but tragic.

IMHO, Vietnam was the equivalent to the Peloponnesian Wars, and we, the United States live in the equivalent of Post Classic Greek, (Hellenistic) period. Like the Classic Greeks, our post WWII idealism was shattered by the reality of a long, brutal war. Similar to the Greeks, this cultural shift is reflected in art, literature and our general world outlook.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

'The Vietnam War' is a masterpiece --- and a model for assessing our history - George Will

Many Americans' moral vanity is expressed nowadays in their rage to disparage.

They are incapable of measured judgments about past politics -- about flawed historical figures who were forced by cascading circumstances to make difficult decisions on the basis of imperfect information. So, the nation now needs an example of how to calmly assess episodes fraught with passion and sorrow. An example arrives September 17.

For 10 nights on PBS, Ken Burns' and Lynn Novick's "The Vietnam War," 10 years in the making and 18 hours in length, tells the story of a war "begun in good faith by decent people, out of fateful misunderstandings," and "prolonged because it seemed easier to muddle through than admit that it had been caused by tragic decisions" during five presidencies.

That sounds just like something I would say....oh wait I did yesterday.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-politics-religion/952155-north-k-again-4.html

"Guns" was about how WW1 started because EVENTS got out of control because of mistakes being made because of misconceptions.

The conclusion that you should have drawn is that mistakes in judgment can be made...misconceptions, misinterpretations and or miscalculations; where one event leads to another in a cascading of events that leads to war. ...TABS 9/17/17


What I gathered from episode One is how mistaken perceptions of the situation clouded decision makers judgement which caused them to make mistakes. LBJ in particular could not see through the haze of Communism to see that what the fighting in Vietnam was all about was a civil war...

Then if ya want you can extrapolate the American experience in Vietnam unto the American involvement in Iraq and the ME at large. American decision makers are less than clear about the situation and that has made another fine mess for America to muddle through...What are we up to in the newest quagmire 3 or 4T USD...money which America can not have afforded to blow. One perchance thinks that might be the last American adventure.

Now we have another blow brewing in NK....

Quite frankly I am tired of the best and supposedly brightest being stupid all the time....

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by tabs

Quite frankly I am tired of the best and supposedly brightest being stupid all the time....

I was with you, I really was, right up until this little excursion into the Twilight Zone

Originally Posted by tabs

...One perchance thinks that might be the last American adventure.

Right up there with:

"Peace in or time..."

"Peace dividend..."

"The war to end all wars..."

Or this little ditty from the Covenant of the League of Nations:

...aggressive war is a crime not only against the immediate victim but against the whole human community.

Really?

Which one are you, Tabs?

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I was with you, I really was, right up until this little excursion into the Twilight Zone




Right up there with:

"Peace in or time..."

"Peace dividend..."

"The war to end all wars..."

Or this little ditty from the Covenant of the League of Nations:

...aggressive war is a crime not only against the immediate victim but against the whole human community.

Really?

Which one are you, Tabs?

None of the fking above...America is broke, and another straw just might break it's back. Thus the last American adventure...

The following is seeing through the haze:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-politics-religion/952155-north-k-again-4.html

Lil "CRAZY" Kim....needs respect in his own hood that he is a tough guy...that he can take on the powers that be (USA etc) and stand up to them..The elders think he is a light weight playboy schooled in Switzerland and is weak. To prove them wrong and to survive in the hood he provokes the USA and China...He wants them (everybody) to fear him and what he is prepared to do...So he is taking risks, brinkmanship.

Most of this has to do with internal politics in NK...A uncle and half brother are now dead...as proof of internal tensions.

So Crazy Kim wants the West to think what you wrote above...that he has some external goal...if he makes the west afraid of what he will do he gets respect at home...which means he survives. He is the tough guy on the NK block. TABS 9/17/17

So which of our esteemed leaders sees this ^^^. Thus you can take your "Twlight Zone" comment and.....

The US is reacting to the provocation and not to the rational behind the provocation.

[Seahawk]

[QUOTE=tabs;9742001 Thus the last American adventure...[/QUOTE]

We are already gearing up for the next one, Nostatabus. Perhaps you have heard, we are breaking ground for a base in Israel. One hopes you have.

Last comment in this thread from me because one thinks that one should respect the wishes of the OP and focus on the the subject.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

We are already gearing up for the next one, Nostatabus. Perhaps you have heard, we are breaking ground for a base in Israel. One hopes you have.

Last comment in this thread from me because one thinks that one should respect the wishes of the OP and focus on the the subject.

It isn't the "next one" it is a continuation of the old one...just another chapter for the history books...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Second episode. riveting, as expected.

[Sunroof]

As a Vietnam Veteran (June 1968 - June 1969) and in country during the Tet Offensive I was very anxious to see Ken Burns series on the war and gain more perspective into the events that let up to the USA's involvement, historically speaking. Burn's hit it right on the head! It made much more sense to me in many regards as to why and how we ended up there, but most importantly the insight into Ho Chi Minh, the role of the French and of course the corruption, politics and the futility of the war itself. When I was discharged from the service in 1970 I went to college and got wrapped up in the anti-war protest movement as did so many returning veterans did and yet while in college I was accused by my peers as a monster, killing innocent people! It was easy to understand the position they took on the war. As Burn's series progresses, I am sure I will witness countless testimony by fellow GI's on the pro's and con's, recounting the battles and sacrifices, the death toll and the angst returning GI's confronted from a hostile American population. I share a common experience with the hundred's of thousands that served in the Vietnam War. No matter if you were a cook, clerk typist, combat pilot, foot soldier or handled a piece of artillery; war seers into the collective memory and to a visceral level the brotherhood of the experience. I am certain Ken Burn's will bring that to the forefront and for so many of us it probably will be very painful.

Bob

[berettafan]

i enjoy his work but I'm not sure it should be called a masterpiece just as it's released.

saw an interview today and he was being treated like he was the first to do a documentary on Vietnam. A bit over the top i think.

[E38Driver]

This was sent to me by a very good friend.


If you are going to watch it, you should read this first. I will watch it, but for how long I don’t know. Mr. Garlock raises some issues I’m concerned about. We’ll just have to wait and see if Burns and Novick do the War justice, or just another snow job?

Be skeptical of Ken Burns’ documentary: The Vietnam War

by Terry Garlock

Some months ago I and a dozen other local veterans attended a screening at the Woodruff Arts Center in Atlanta – preview of a new documentary on The Vietnam War by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick. The screening was a one hour summation of this 10-part documentary, 18 hours long.

The series will begin showing on PBS Sunday Sep 17, and with Burns’ renowned talent mixing photos, video clips and compelling mood music in documentary form, the series promises to be compelling to watch. That doesn’t mean it tells the truth.

For many years I have been presenting to high school classes a 90 minute session titled The Myths and Truths of the Vietnam War. One of my opening comments is, “The truth about Vietnam is bad enough without twisting it all out of shape with myths, half-truths and outright lies from the anti-war left.” The overall message to students is advising them to learn to think for themselves, be informed by reading one newspaper that leans left, one that leans right, and be skeptical of TV news.

Part of my presentation is showing them four iconic photos from Vietnam, aired publicly around the world countless times to portray America’s evil involvement in Vietnam. I tell the students “the rest of the story” excluded by the news media about each photo, then ask, “Wouldn’t you want the whole story before you decide for yourself what to think?”

One of those photos is the summary execution of a Viet Cong soldier in Saigon, capital city of South Vietnam, during the battles of the Tet Offensive in 1968. Our dishonorable enemy negotiated a cease-fire for that holiday then on that holiday attacked in about 100 places all over the country. Here’s what I tell students about the execution in the photo.

https://i1.wp.com/wellalldieasmarines.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Execution.jpg

Enemy execution by South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police, 1968

“Before you decide what to think, here’s what the news media never told us. This enemy soldier had just been caught after he murdered a Saigon police officer, the officer’s wife, and the officer’s six children. The man pulling the trigger was Nguyen Ngoc Loan, South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police. His actions were supported by South Vietnamese law, and by the Geneva Convention since he was an un-uniformed illegal combatant. Now, you might still be disgusted by the summary execution, but wouldn’t you want all the facts before you decide what to think?”

The other one-sided stories about iconic photos I use are a nine year old girl named Kim Phuc, running down a road after her clothes were burned off by a napalm bomb, a lady kneeling by the body of a student at Kent State University, and a helicopter on top of a building with too many evacuees trying to climb aboard. Each one had only the half of the story told by news media during the war, the half that supported the anti-war narrative.

Our group of vets left the Ken Burns documentary screening . . . disappointed. As one example, all four of the photos I use were shown, with only the anti-war narrative. Will the whole truth be told in the full 18 hours? I have my doubts but we’ll see.

On the drive home with Mike King, Bob Grove and Terry Ernst, Ernst asked the other three of us who had been in Vietnam, “How does it make you feel seeing those photos and videos?” I answered, “I just wish for once they would get it right.”

Will the full documentary show John Kerry’s covert meeting in Paris with the leadership of the Viet Cong while he was still an officer in the US Naval Reserve and a leader in the anti-war movement? Will it show how Watergate crippled the Republicans and swept Democrats into Congress in 1974, and their rapid defunding of South Vietnamese promised support after Americans had been gone from Vietnam two years? Will it show Congress violating America’s pledge to defend South Vietnam if the North Vietnamese ever broke their pledge to never attack the south? Will it portray America’s shame in letting our ally fall, the tens of thousands executed for working with Americans, the hundreds of thousands who perished fleeing in overpacked, rickety boats, the million or so sent to brutal re-education camps? Will it show the North Vietnamese victors bringing an influx from the north to take over South Vietnam’s businesses, the best jobs, farms, all the good housing, or committing the culturally ruthless sin of bulldozing grave monuments of the South Vietnamese?

Will Burns show how the North Vietnamese took the city of Hue during the 1968 Tet Offensive, bringing lists of names of political leaders, business owners, doctors, nurses, teachers and other “enemies of the people,” and how they went from street to street, dragging people out of their homes, and that in the aftermath of the Battle of Hue, only when thousands of people were missing and the search began did they find the mass graves where they had been tied together and buried alive?

Will Burns show how America, after finally withdrawing from Vietnam and shamefully standing by while our ally was brutalized, did nothing while next door in Cambodia the Communists murdered two million of their own people as they tried to mimic Mao’s “worker paradise” in China?

Will Burns show how American troops conducted themselves with honor, skill and courage, never lost a major battle, and helped the South Vietnamese people in many ways like building roads and schools, digging wells, teaching improved farming methods and bringing medical care where it had never been seen before? Will he show that American war crimes, exaggerated by the left, were even more rare in Vietnam than in WWII? Will he show how a naïve young Jane Fonda betrayed her country with multiple radio broadcasts from North Vietnam, pleading with American troops to refuse their orders to fight, and calling American pilots and our President war criminals?

Color me doubtful about these and many other questions.

Being in a war doesn’t make anyone an expert on the geopolitical issues, it’s a bit like seeing history through a straw with your limited view. But my perspective has come from many years of reflection and absorbing a multitude of facts and opinions, because I was interested. My belief is that America’s involvement in Vietnam was a noble cause trying to stop the spread of Communism in Southeast Asia, while it had spread its miserable oppression in Eastern Europe and was gaining traction in Central America, Africa and other places around the world. This noble cause was, indeed, screwed up to a fare-thee-well by the Pentagon and White House, which multiplied American casualties.

The tone of the screening was altogether different, that our part in the war was a sad mistake. It seemed like Burns and Novick took photos, video clips, artifacts and interviews from involved Americans, South Vietnamese, North Vietnamese, Viet Cong, civilians from south and north, reporters and others, threw it all in a blender to puree into a new form of moral equivalence. Good for spreading a thin layer of blame and innocence, not so good for finding the truth.

John M. Del Vecchio, author of The 13th Valley, a book considered by many Vietnam vets to be the literary touchstone of how they served and suffered in the jungles of Vietnam, has this to say about Burns’ documentary. “Pretending to honor those who served while subtly and falsely subverting the reasons and justifications for that service is a con man’s game . . . From a cinematic perspective it will be exceptional. Burns knows how to make great scenes. But through the lens of history it appears to reinforce a highly skewed narrative and to be an attempt to ossify false cultural memory. The lies and fallacies will be by omission, not by overt falsehoods.”

I expect to see American virtue minimized, American missteps emphasized, to fit the left-leaning narrative about the Vietnam War that, to this day, prevents our country from learning the real lessons from that war.

When we came home from Vietnam, we thought the country had lost its mind. Wearing the uniform was for fools too dimwitted to escape service. Burning draft cards, protesting the war in ways that insulted our own troops was cool, as was fleeing to Canada.

America’s current turmoil reminds me of those days, since so many of American traditional values are being turned upside down. Even saying words defending free speech on a university campus feels completely absurd, but here we are.

So Ken Burns’ new documentary on the Vietnam War promises to solidify him as the documentary king, breathes new life into the anti-war message, and fits perfectly into the current practice of revising history to make us feel good.

Perhaps you will prove me wrong. Watch carefully, but I would advise a heavy dose of skepticism.



Terry Garlock lives in Peachtree City, GA. He was a Cobra helicopter gunship pilot in the Vietnam War.

[sammyg2]

Hopefully it's not just another attempt at re-writing history from a "certain" bias.
Oh wait, that was every single show on the Smithsonian channel I was thinking of.
Only 2 thirds of PBS shows try to do that.

[Seahawk]

Great post E38.

[David]

After 2 nights of watching, I'd consider it pretty even keeled coverage. They show good sides of the north and south and bad sides of the north and south. Good sides of Kennedy and bad sides of Kennedy. Good US generals and bad US generals. There's still a lot more to go but so far I've learned a ton I didn't know.

[porsche4life]

It's on the PBS app for your streaming devices. . Thuy and I are going to start watching this weekend.

[GH85Carrera]

We watched the first episode last night. It was interesting. I always knew the French had left and we somehow got roped into taking over the fight. I did not realize the French had occupied the country for so long and just had the local people as basic slaves. And as usual, the fight gets tough and the French wave the white flag and run away to let someone else fight.

[Scott Douglas]

I thought it interesting that we ended up footing so much of the bill for their fight. I bet 90% of the country (USA) didn't know about that.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by berettafan

i enjoy his work but I'm not sure it should be called a masterpiece just as it's released.

saw an interview today and he was being treated like he was the first to do a documentary on Vietnam. A bit over the top i think.

+1

Burns is a hack. He has an appealing style that has become a cookie cutter formula for monetary success for him.

I've seen glaring errors in other documentaries of his and am wary of accepting his "facts". I'm not saying that he is all wrong. Just that you have to be on guard. He also has openly showed a political and social agenda.