"Lifetime Fluids" my arrrr$$$e :)
 

I just finally got up the courage to change the transmission oil in my wife's 2015 v60 volvo.

approx 50,000 miles.

It, of course, is a "lifetime" fluid which never needs to be changed. I figured it might look a little amber, hell, it could only get soooo gnarly.

Behold...... I've dropped turds prettier than this. It's no wonder all the 8-9 thousand speed newfangled no fluid needed ipod compatible trannys are going bad. The computers these days are programmed to compensate for bad oil- but burnt oil, is burnt oil. It smells every so slightly fragrantly as such.

Oh well... now to see if the car still works! :D

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By "lifetime" they mean the lifetime of the fluid... not the car. OR they mean the lifetime of the car since not replacing the fluid will affect the lifetime of the car in general! :D

I had a dealer tell me the trans had lifetime fluid in it. I told them "yeah... and at 100K its lifetime is up! Let's change it.

Friend had a van with lifetime engine oil and special expensive filters, back in the 70's. Valves were chattering like crazy.... I kept telling him to dump the lifetime, but since his father did it, he didn't want to deal with dad.

Finally dumped it, loaded with contaminates, very thin, probably gas blowby... noise went away.

By "lifetime" they mean lifetime of the warranty. By extending the service intervals, they can claim a lower cost-of-ownership.

If you didn't replace it with Volvo fluid, you may have just voided the warranty. I used to sell Volvo in the late 80's and they would deny repair claims if you used anything but their parts and fluids.

Lifetime is whatever for service intervals for the first owner.

Usually the first 3 years of a lease. (don't forget "Maintenance included")

The problems come down the road for succeeding owner. But now is their problem and not the manufacturer. Out of warranty Sorry!!!:rolleyes:

I changed the fluid in my wife's Altima using the fluid the warrantee called for. It's been a while & I don't remember the reason, but only half of the fluid could be changed at a time. I learned the stealership changed half the fluid and called it good. I did a fluid change the following weekend to get maybe 90% new fluid in it. Same thing for my F350. I took it in for a coolant change & was told they only changed out four of the eight gallons and called it a coolant change. I took it to an indi place and told them to change out all eight gallons. It's strange thinking to call half a change a whole change.

Ya know, just because it smells rank, is 'dirty', and you think it isn't any good, think again. The oil is doing its job. It might be time to change or it may be fine believe it or not. I have seen far worse looking oil and it is fine in a system. I would like to understand the degree of oxidation, if there was a significant amountg of wear metals, and if the viscosity was still in spec. I would be willing to bet it was still fine to be in the box.

When you change fluid sometimes you introduce more bad then good.

You have an issue.

Just changed oil in pal's 2004 S60. Was not burnt at 190k. Played hell figuring out what fluid to buy but settled on a case of Mobil 3309 thru Amazon post research. 12 Quarts. Maybe liters.

Have performed one cycle. Two more needed to get as close to clean as possible.

I would argue at 50k not so.

^^^^This^^^^^

But - if you read the owners manual carefully, vehicles undergoing " Extreme" conditions, the 'schedule' is advanced considerably. IE: Those fluids pegged at 100K - or lifetime are under average driving conditions. Extreme conditions may dictate half that.
'
Really more to the point, I've never seen 'damage' done when performing services ahead, sometimes waaaay ahead of what the manufacturer claims is safe.

I took one of my cars in a few years back to a transmission shop to change the 'lifetime' fluid, just because I thought it was probably a good thing to do at 75,000. The owner of the shop who has been doing transmissions for 35+ years told me the exact same thing. So I didn't change it and never had a problem. Your mileage may vary ....

Exactly! Funny how the fluid suddenly became "lifetime" but the actual fluid did not change. So overnight it suddenly was good forever? After the warranty is over you are on your own, best to use your best judgement instead of paying attention to the OEM.

Thanks all...

Totally with you MD on the potential of "causing more bad than good" idea. Infact- that's why I've held off until today. You guys are light years ahead of me in oil knowledge. Finally, I bit the bullet. I mean, perhaps it could go to 100k, but then at some point... it really would need to be changed.

For my 2005 xc70 I use the about $70 of 3309. For my wife's car, $210 worth of volvo's finest rebranded "whatever it is" for her Aisin TF-80SC.

Today was also a moment of courage on my xc70 as I worked up the courage to install an external transmission filter. The xc70 is on it's fifth change and will trip 200,000 by christmas. For these "new" volvo's, that seems to be an accomplishment (at least for me).

We live on a mountain, and the engine goes through a lot of shifting on inclines, and she drives pretty hard, where as I am perfect and lightfooted like a butterfly.

I figured I voided the warranty just by changing the oil as an uncertified volvo dealer.

I don't know what gives. hers is a 6 speed, and is probably still shifting right now in the driveway even though I turned it off 30 minutes ago. Mine is just five. Hers has a cooler thermostat and a much smaller external oil cooler, about the size of a deck of cards. I think my 2005 has a larger cooler in the radiator shroud. It has no thermostat I am aware of.

FWIW- we drove out to dinner tonight and she commented that things had gotten significantly better after the change. I sort of believe her, but am torn between an actual improvement and being biased in knowing I just changed it.

Who knows. At any rate- the car still works, and seems to work a "bit" better. My 915 was also shifting well yesterday after driving it for several hours in a "spirited" manner.

So there you go! :)


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You changed a lot less than 90%... maybe 2/3 of the fluid.
(Half the fluid you changed the second time was 'new' fluid from the first change.)

Diminishing returns, you'd need a 2-3 more changes to even approach 90%.

And you can never change all of it, doing half at a time.

But effectively, it's much better.

I've read Lubey's book and he knows what he speaks of...

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lifetime transmission fluid, bah, humbug

Mercedes tried the lifetime fluid also. not good. thing is with the MB is if you went a long time without changing then had it FLUSHED, it would kill the tranny about 10k miles later.
if it was flushed regularly at low mile intervals you were ok.

when I got my MB and not knowing the history I just drain it, replace the filter and put back it new

The MB issue had as much to do with a critical weak bearing in the trans (assuming we're talking 722.6) that would fail. Some folks recommended not draining the t/c. Personally, I've not had the issue. The other MB trans issue is that mid 90's cars had the habit of wicking fluid into the trans ECM. Preventable with a connector change every 60k or so.

No such thing as lifetime lube. Period. The largest reason is that a trans can shed a fair amount of metal and still be fine...for a while. If you get the metal out you extend the life of the trans. There's no way to know you need to change the fluid without changing the fluid.

My 400SE W140, M-B recommends a transmission oil change every 30,000 miles. (48,280 km)
There is no recommendation on the differential oil which I find surprising but I plan to change it every second transmission oil change.

And because I have an early car it has a dipstick. The later W140s had a cap with a lock tab and no dipstick.
.... M-B did this to stop owners introducing dirt and lint into the transmission.

BMW tried that in the final drive of some of their bikes and went so far as to not include a fill hole in the housing. Doanno if they still do.

Lifetime fill in our 2004 BMW 325. Reverse and drive started delaying when selected. At 90k.

Bought a kit based on what type of trans (GM made trans for some!) and it came with proper fluid, filter, gasket and all new bolts. All delay gone, shifted like new. Was a little worried, believed the hype "Only BMW can service the trans. They refused to change the fluid, so no options.

Filled per instructions, car is now 170k, maybe time for another change. Still shifts like new.

Had a similar situation with my BMW 525i with 128K. Spoke to a very reliable and experienced transmission mechanic who services BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, etc. His advice was as mentioned by a few in this thread. Basically, if the fluid is changed regularly at, say, 50-60K, there should be no problems. Once you get around 100K on the "lifetime" fluids, changing should be done with only partial fluid replacement. New fluid has much stronger "cleaning" chemicals that older fluid and to introduce that to a well used system often results in failures within the near future.

Well yes and no. I have seen multiple examples of gearboxes never being drained and when properly sealed they last a very long time. There are several ways to get metal of the gear and into the oil:
Abrasive Wear: from particulate that plows, gouges, cuts the surface. This typically happens upon start-up when the metal surfaces of the gears are touching with minimal oil film to separate them. Only under full operation is there a complete separation so there is a very minimal opportunity for that sort of wear to occur.

External contamination is typically to blame. If you looked under a scope you would see what look like nail clippings. Sometimes there is also rubbing wear which is considered normal wear and that occurs with new components - some call it break-in wear. Those look like platelets. None of these you can see with the bare eye.

Surface Fatigue: from very hard particulate that is forced between the two surfaces and due to such high localized pressure will actually contribute to a crack or fissure on the surface. This is referred to as spalling. The crack will propagate and the surface becomes compromised. Particles are typically spherical in shape. You can also get pitting from particles as well as Brinelling which is due to a dis-harmonic producing atypical vibrations. I some cases (but not in diffs or trans) you can get hydrogen embritterment. Again, not that common in over the road applications but worthy of mention. Surface fatigue is typically due to external contamination (sand) but it can happen with wear particles due to surface contact.

Adhesive Wear: from the two surfaces coming in contact under really high load without the oil film. In such cases even the anti-wear or extreme pressure agents in the oil can't help much. In this scenario you will have scuffing, galling, and even seizing of the gear faces. If the force is ridiculously large the gear teeth will cold well and the set is seized. Its rare but I have seen it. Normally the force is greater then the weld point and chunks of metal break off and tumble around creating havoc and despair. If you have a compromise of the oil film you can get adhesive wear and the particles have a particular shape. This is considered severe sliding wear and they have a plate shape.

There is also chemical wear (fretting, corrosion, static corrosion, rust) but if you have a closed system that would not normally happen. It is possible to get cavitation corrosion which is an implosion of micro air pockets. This is due to pressure differences but the likelihood of that happening on a trans or a diff is remote. Maybe micro-dieseling but even then, the formula of the oil has a stout amount of anti-foam so its rare - could happen if there is water but again, a closed system wouldn't allow it.

Now why is it good to know all these failure modes? Because if you know why it fails maybe you can work towards prevention and that is exactly what I have been doing with several large OEMs that make heavy equipment including engines and what have you. I have helped several of these start a wear debris library. Pulling oil samples form lots of different stages and various models under various conditions goes a long way in designing in maintainability. I also work with several major oil companies as well as several independents doing the same but also looking at used oil condition and chemistry. Now why would an oil company want to develop an oil that would stay in the box forever? Because they all know that if that is not the goal then their competition will achieve it.

I have seen diesel engine oil formulas achieve >100,000 miles between changes - this is from a few different angles, from the oil formulas and the OEM (tolerances, metallurgy, designs) and filtration. I always thought that if an oil company built engines or an engine company formulated oil it would happen faster. To be that vertically integrated is really tough. They do have some great partnerships out there which is very encouraging.

So, how do you really know when to change your oil? You have to test it. No other way.

Yeah, testing it will tell you when to change the oil, after you already changed it.

Cheaper and easier as an end user to just change the fluids on time, like I have been doing the last 30 years.

You can pull a sample without draining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrMzQ9sQoE4&t=1s

and if you wish to see a commercial lab in action...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac0-sOZBReM&t=68s

In cases such as my M3's trans or diff, the amount of effort to pull a sample to test is, for all intensive porpoises, the same as to just change it.

Yes! The perfect reason to have a lube for life! But in order to get there requires data, data, and more data. That means sampling, testing, analyzing, diagnosing...and sampling some more.

No, that is not a perfect reason to have lifetime lubricants.
That is the case with every single car I have ever had. If I am getting a sample, I am replacing the fluid, period.

I change my stuff often enough doing oil analysis never really occurred to me.

Lifetime lube is a self fulfilling prophecy.

Thank you.

Why does this have to be so complex.

Well, on our beater Saturn we have 160k/21 years on the same tranny oil....I'll never change it...it is a beater...but runs really well and shifts smoothly....so, for me, it is a lifetime fluid :).

They are great bumper cars too (wife is a PharmD) and it lives in a parking lot and gets hit all of the time...the plastic panels just pop back out...how do we know when it has been hit....a 20 dollar bill under the wiper (like that is a fair deal aye lol)...so far we are over 300 bucks.

Seriously? That is righteous that folks would assess damage that meticulously.

Hey.... My x-girlfriend was a pharm-d and drove a saturn!!!!
Your Saturn isn't dark blue is it?

Isn't the goal of this forum for people to enable/encourage other like minded people to embark on missions of futility with unnecessary and needlessly overengineered stuff? The saturn does not qualify!!!!


I appreciate MD's thorough write-up. I used to test my used brad penn to see how the 911 was doing after changing the oil. It always came back good. It was nice to know. I can geek out for hours on that type of stuff. OTOH- while that info might be good for long term improvements/ benefit in industry/ fleet vehicles, or humanity at large, to me it is largely academic.

I can test my oil to see if it is okay. Perhaps it is. If I test it a year later, and it is not, then for a period of time damage was occurring, and the transmission was taking somewhat of a beating. At some time- the oil will become contaminated. To a certain extent, the transmission would be the sacrifical lamb.

I was in a local shop recently looking at a volvo transmission the owner had courageously tried to rebuild himself (unsuccessfully). It was more complex than C3PO. In the middle was an unserviceable oil filter that was 2/3'rds clogged with crap.


If I change the oil preventatively, especially if the oil was still good, the oil itself is the sacrificial lamb- which is better than the transmission itself.

The oil change itself is always stressful- the prospect of introducing contaminants, loosening debri, incorrect refilling, etc...., but it's done.

Now I'm on to stress out about other stuff! :D

I know, not kidding either....the first time Mary found a 20 she was...'What's this all about'...'Honey, someone hit your car'
On the Saturn the plastic body work will dent...then, given time pop back out...and the color is impregnated so no issues with the paint....
For a 'cheap' vehicle in '97 it has never failed to 'go'....I had to replace the radiator and honestly...100 bucks and an hour job. Everything just works and...and, no rubber cam belt...it has an oil bath chain for God's sake.
The best beater car you can buy....

You're right tho.....given their perspective what does a 20 buy you at the body shop....never and address/name...just a 20....rat bastards lol....

A 20 buys you half of a front suspension rebuild.

Nothing is over $100 on a Saturn if back yard fixin'.

Love those plastic bee-otches.

Glad for this discussion. I have a 2013 Mazda 5 that showed dirty transmission fluid at 60K. I was 750 past the warranty when I asked them to look at it. I pulled the pan, changed the filter and replaced the fallen fluid. I think I once again drained and filled. I probably replaced....50-60% of the fluid. It is still not RED, and looks mostly gray.

I would happily (a relative term) have the dealer flush and replace 100% if I thought it would do more good than harm. There is no slippage. I suspect the torque converter, not so much the transmission, based on a little vibration mostly, developed lately. All its life, building torque after a stop has required a little more RPMs than most transmissions, but the car has always otherwise shifted just fine. I think this needs a different torque converter, but my first decision is whether to replace the fluid or not. More harm than good? More good than harm?

Your perspective appreciated.

Lubey, I'm curious about your last comment...more bad than good. I've heard the stories about sudden trans failure following fluid change and have always written them off as coincidence.

Why?

Bump. You guys have failed to answer my question. SmileWavy The car has 90K miles. No slipping or shifting problems. Suspect torque converter. I am thinking about having the fluid flushed/replaced. I predict this would do more good than harm, but not sure about that.

greglepore has a similar question. We know that dirty fluid can contain abrasives that the tired/worn transmission now needs, and that flushing and replacing that fluid can cause the transmission to have a slipping problem.

Chemistry. It is really about the chemistry. And although oil companies say they produce products that are 'backward compatible' it doesn't mean they actually work better. Formulas change almost annually. That said, the countless hours spent in R&D along with road work to find the right recipe will be changed within a year. Now some will say that the product is the same, of better. The thing is, your Grandmothers toll house cookies or the McDonalds fries of the 70's were better then your Wife's gluten-free, fat free, taste free 'cookies' or the new MickyDs fries sans trans fat which are supposed to be better right? Hmmmmm. Combine that with introducing contaminates (less then 20 micron particles create the most wear - that is not much bigger than a white blood cell) and its a recipe for failure.