CWC engine block markings - need help

kevin993 · 03-22-2018, 06:51 PM

Calling on the obscure knowledge of the Pelican faithful for a tough one - need some help.

Looking for help to decode markings on an engine. See pics below. Casting markings of CWC would clearly suggest a link to the Campbell Wynatt and Cannon foundry (now part of CWC Textron). We have a working theory that the engine may have come from a military truck from post-WWII era but that's a guess.

Anybody have knowledge or references of where to get knowledge? I've tried to contact CWC Textron, but can't get anyone to return a call or email so don't really know if they have archives or a historian in-house. If someone has a contact there, that might be helpful too.

Cheers,
Kevin

Cooper911SC · 03-22-2018, 09:45 PM

Hey Kevin, what do you want to know about the engine?

How many cylinders is it? Any shots of the whole thing? Where did you pick it up?

I’m asking because I know/do work for Randy Ema.

He’s a historian and and well known restorer of early American cars. Think Auburn, Cord, Duesenberg, etc.

Happy to help if I can relay info.

kevin993 · 03-23-2018, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooper911SC

Hey Kevin, what do you want to know about the engine?

How many cylinders is it? Any shots of the whole thing? Where did you pick it up?

I’m asking because I know/do work for Randy Ema.

He’s a historian and and well known restorer of early American cars. Think Auburn, Cord, Duesenberg, etc.

Happy to help if I can relay info.

Thanks much. It is quite a story with some potentially very interesting history. I'll PM you and we can go from there.

wdfifteen · wdfifteen's Garage

I've studied old engines for quite a while and had to google this one. Sounds like it could be a Continental engine. Also doesn't sound like CWC made engines themselves.

"Campbell, Wyant and Cannon Foundry, Muskegon, Michigan. Continental got block castings from a number of foundries and CWC made poured blocks for many more engine manufacturers than just Continental."

kevin993 · 03-24-2018, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

I've studied old engines for quite a while and had to google this one. Sounds like it could be a Continental engine. Also doesn't sound like CWC made engines themselves.

"Campbell, Wyant and Cannon Foundry, Muskegon, Michigan. Continental got block castings from a number of foundries and CWC made poured blocks for many more engine manufacturers than just Continental."

Now hat's interesting. Agree that CWC didn't make engines themselves, but hadn't been able to figure out who this block was made for. I didn't have a potential Continental connection. Here's better pictures of the engine that might help with more context.

Does that help?

dafischer · 03-24-2018, 07:28 PM

What's that engine mounted in? Looks like a 30's racer. Pics?

wdfifteen · wdfifteen's Garage

Continental made engines for a lot of companies. They were typically flatheads with the distributor poking up through the head. I'm guessing your engine is a Continental U6501. They are commonly found in fire trucks and military vehicles of the 30s and late 40s..

kevin993 · 03-25-2018, 08:30 AM

The engine is indeed currently resident in a race car - a 1920 Siemens Protos to be specific. Apparently, the car ran at the opening race at Avus (near Berlin) in 1921. It was thought lost and then found in a building to be demolished in 1993.

As a German car that ran in a German race and was stored in Germany, the American engine is a puzzle. Our guess is that it came from an American military vehicle but we don't know when it might have been installed. The idea of a Continental engine from a military vehicle in the 1930s or 1940s could be a fit.

There are a bunch of photos and even some video clips out on the interweb. Just do a google search for: 1920 protos siemens

kevin993 · 03-25-2018, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Continental made engines for a lot of companies. They were typically flatheads with the distributor poking up through the head. I'm guessing your engine is a Continental U6501. They are commonly found in fire trucks and military vehicles of the 30s and late 40s..

Thanks much for this. Marvelous! Will do some digging.

Cooper911SC · 03-25-2018, 09:35 AM

Got your PM Kevin. I’ll bounce this off of Randy on Monday.
(He has a ‘30’s Auburn 12 Speedster that’s been going together the last several years. The boat tail cars are very cool)

Sounds like WD is a resident expert too.

Neat car and history.

herr_oberst · 03-25-2018, 09:56 AM

This is about the coolest thread that's been on here in a long time! I've been a car guy all my life, mostly interested in fast and sporty stuff, and this is the first time I've ever heard of a Siemens Protos – and the fact that the car is gorgeous just makes me glad that somebody found this and you shared the story.

dafischer · 03-25-2018, 09:59 AM

Continental engines were used in the M35 2 1/2 ton Army truck, in the early 50's. The installation could have been done in the mid to late 50's with a surplus engine sold by the Army. They were also used in Reo Gold Comet trucks, one of which may have migrated to Germany after the war.

I saw this, and the engine looks very similar to yours.

https://www.easternsurplus.net/PartDetails/4941/REO-Gold-Comet-Continental-Model-0A331-Gas-Engine

bkreigsr · 03-25-2018, 10:08 AM

I love this BBS - thanks Wayne.

Bill K

kevin993 · 03-25-2018, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dafischer

Continental engines were used in the M35 2 1/2 ton Army truck, in the early 50's. The installation could have been done in the mid to late 50's with a surplus engine sold by the Army. They were also used in Reo Gold Comet trucks, one of which may have migrated to Germany after the war.

I saw this, and the engine looks very similar to yours.

https://www.easternsurplus.net/PartDetails/4941/REO-Gold-Comet-Continental-Model-0A331-Gas-Engine

Thanks. One working theory is that the codes suggest a 1953 date. Only a guess but might line up with your timeframe.

kevin993 · 03-25-2018, 10:38 AM

Thanks to all for the ideas and input (posting and PMs). I have some other suggestions to follow.

We're thinking the engine is about 6.3 liters if that helps anyone.

I have a small video/audio clip, but haven't figured out how to embed/post yet. Here's another photo in the interim.

If anyone has any historical documents about the 1921 Avus race itself, that would be excellent as well. Anything - news accounts, results, entry lists, photos, etc.

LWJ · 03-25-2018, 12:23 PM

I agree as well this is just cool. Thanks!

Cooper911SC · 03-26-2018, 09:35 AM

Talked with Randy this am and he didn’t recognize it.
He did help to likely rule out Continental though. Mostly due to the fact your engine is OHV.

Looks like they weren’t making OHV engines in that time period.

Here’s a list of Passenger car engines they were making between 1920 & 1959

Here’s a pic of some of the truck or commercial engines from around the ‘50’s as well. Different architecture.

And so the hunt continues...
Somebody out there will recognize it.

kevin993 · 03-26-2018, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooper911SC

Talked with Randy this am and he didn’t recognize it.
He did help to likely rule out Continental though. Mostly due to the fact your engine is OHV.

Looks like they weren’t making OHV engines in that time period.
...
And so the hunt continues...
Somebody out there will recognize it.

Thanks for the look and feedback! Separately, I heard back from a Continental engine expert overnight who similarly didn't recognize it, so that's two good data points on that front. Now, I just need someone who knows what it IS...

kevin993 · 05-19-2018, 02:29 PM

Bumping this story for a bit of an update...

Made contact with someone at CWC who confirmed that many old records were destroyed. They were also able to help with diagnosing some of the casting codes. Some clearly reflected a year and day of the year of manufacture. A single digit gets you to the last number of the year, but they do NOT clearly designate the full year of manufacture. In other words, the codes tell us that the engine block was cast in the 6th year of the decade, but they don't tell us whether that means 1936, 1946, 1956, etc.

Other codes appear to be unique to the client for whom the engine was cast, but we don't know what those mean yet.

We've been unable to trace the engine to any production road car or truck. CWC cast many engines for military vehicles, so our working theory is/was that the engine came from some kind of US military truck or tractor. The engine is a big thing - straight 6 cylinder and a 6.8 liter size.

We made a visit to a local museum with lots of US military gear (mostly WWII and later) with thoughts that a particular truck might fit the bill. On site, the guy there told us that no way the engine was from that truck and no way was it from WWII - he wasn't familiar with it and thought it clearly looked older.

If all that is correct, then our engine was made before WWII which means 1926 or 1936. And that's where we are at this point... Not sure where we go from here, but stay tuned.