best primer over Evercoat Feather fill / MAJOR PROBLEM

jimtweet · jimtweet's Garage

so, I took the car down to bare metal, sprayed the car with two coats of self etch primer from East wood, followed by two coats of Evercoat Feather fill G2.

Blocked out car with 80 grit, Filled spots with filler.

Sprayed three more coats of Evercoat Feather fill G2.

Blocked out with 180.

This is where the problems begin. Any spot that was showing bare metal I went back to use Dupli Color self etch can as a touch up.

I got two quarts of Lesonal HS primer from my body guy who will be spraying the color and clear.

Thank god I sprayed a test panel, but! I sprayed on Lesonal and it bubbled, aligator skined, wrinkled, whatever you want to call it, all over.

my question

WHAT SHOULD I BE USING OVER THE EVERCOAT FEATHER FILL G2

962porsche · 03-23-2015, 09:49 AM

you did some many things wrong I don't know were to start .

1st you used a self etch primer . wrong ! if it was there lacquer based it's even worse .
1st thing wrong with that is it was out of a spray can so there was no catalyst /hardener .
because of this it's always reversible meaning it turns back to a liquid state from other solvents .
the next thing that was done wrong was you went over it with a spray filler .
the only time you could do that is with a catalyzed etch primer that is well cured .
that would take months in hot weather . even then you really should not go over a etch primer .
as the chromate in the primer break down the spray filler .
you can go over a catalyzed epoxy but that too has to be at full cured to do so and have a low chromate base to it .

then you have mixed and miss matched products that in no way could work together .
you should pick a product line and stay with in that product line .

products like feather fill are designed more for going over composites (fiberglass) or over bare metals sanded no finer then a 80 grit .
they are pretty much a stand alone product not meant to be mixed with to many other products .

you then spotted in bare areas with more etch primer .
again with no catalyst .
then you tried to go over every thing with a totally different brand of high build primer .

I hate to say it but your only true out is to strip the car back down and start over .
you could spend hours trying to fix all the areas and maybe even get top coat on the car but in very little time the car will delaminate , shrink in , start rusting under the under coats you sprayed .
at that point all the time money and so on will be totally worthless .

jimtweet · jimtweet's Garage

I am sure you are correct, and have way more experience then myself.

I did a TON of reading and talking to people and these were all the steps that were given to me.

The first round of self each was a quart from Eastwood, this was not a can

Eastwood Self-Etch Primer Gray

About Eastwood Self-Etch Primer Gray
This easy-to-use aerosol etches and primes bare, rust-free metal in one step. Adheres to steel, aluminum, stainless steel, and galvanized steel and is compatible with virtually any paint or auto finish (not our Chassis Black). This self-etching formula bonds better to bare metals than other aerosol primers. It is also a single- stage formula which requires no catalyst, making it even easier to use.

Then, Feather fill was recommended to me and after reading says that it can be applied directly over self etching primer

Details
When you need more filler over self-etching primers, use Evercoat FeatherFill® G2™ Many shops commonly apply self-etching primer to bare metal surfaces. But most polyester fillers and epoxy primers should not be applied directly over self-etching primers. So what do you apply when you need additional filling? Feather Fill G2 is the answer.
High-solids, high-build formula is an excellent foundation for any paint system
Use your primer gun with a 1.7mm-2.2mm nozzle
Eliminates body filler staining

jimtweet · jimtweet's Garage

from what I have been reading, I should have sprayed a 2k epoxy primer over everything, is that correct?

not the lesonal

HS Surfacer/Sealer-Gray Gl [398271Kit] - $224.99 : USA Auto Supply, The professional choice

962porsche · 03-23-2015, 03:19 PM

if some one told you it was ok to use a lacquer based no catalyst etch primer under a extra high build polyester based catalyzed primer (feather fill ) they are 100% wrong on all maters of using the two products together .

if you don't remove the feather fill from the 1st product you sprayed down ( single part etch primer) the hole car will delaminate with in 5 years .

using a epoxy primer under the feather fill is not much better but can be done .
you have to wait months from the time you sprayed the epoxy to the time you can spray the feather fill .the epoxy has to be at full cure before you can spray the polyester over the epoxy surfacer .

think of the lacquer as the earths core .
it's always moving and floating never getting hard .
the catalyst or hardener in a product makes thing get hardened .

now think of the feather fill (polyester spray filler) as the earths crust .
it's hard ! does not move around .

because you used a product that does not go to harden or a cure state it truly always soft . like the earths core .
making it so its really always moveing .

so because you have used a product (lacquer ) that has no hardener / catalyst it's soft and solvent sensitive . when you used another solvent based product like the lesonal it went thru the feather fill and attacked the soft lacquer product .
so that makes it look like you put paint stripper on the car .
the heaver you put the lesonal on the more it wants to lift .

a lacquer product should only be used with other lacquer products .

this gets back to what I said before .
nothing was done right you mixed the wrong things together .

the only real fix at this point is to remove every thing you put on the car .
could you break your stones and maybe get primer and top coat on the car the way it is ?
maybe ?????

but the car will delaminate in a very short time .
the reason is you have a etch primer under a polyester and the chromates in the etch will eat away at the polyester .

at this point once the car is stripped back down to bare . you could spray a coat of epoxy catalyzed primer to combat rust then use a regular build primer like the lesonal over that .

your other option is to just spray the feather fill (polyester spray filler) with no epoxy under it .

again if you were to spray an catalyzed epoxy you would have to wait about 6 months before you can spray the feather fill over it .

if you

jimtweet · jimtweet's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by 962porsche

if some one told you it was ok to use a lacquer based no catalyst etch primer under a extra high build polyester based catalyzed primer (feather fill ) they are 100% wrong on all maters of using the two products together .

if you don't remove the feather fill from the 1st product you sprayed down ( single part etch primer) the hole car will delaminate with in 5 years .

using a epoxy primer under the feather fill is not much better but can be done .
you have to wait months from the time you sprayed the epoxy to the time you can spray the feather fill .the epoxy has to be at full cure before you can spray the polyester over the epoxy surfacer .

think of the lacquer as the earths core .
it's always moving and floating never getting hard .
the catalyst or hardener in a product makes thing get hardened .

now think of the feather fill (polyester spray filler) as the earths crust .
it's hard ! does not move around .

because you used a product that does not go to harden or a cure state it truly always soft . like the earths core .
making it so its really always moveing .

so because you have used a product (lacquer ) that has no hardener / catalyst it's soft and solvent sensitive . when you used another solvent based product like the lesonal it went thru the feather fill and attacked the soft lacquer product .
so that makes it look like you put paint stripper on the car .
the heaver you put the lesonal on the more it wants to lift .

a lacquer product should only be used with other lacquer products .

this gets back to what I said before .
nothing was done right you mixed the wrong things together .

the only real fix at this point is to remove every thing you put on the car .
could you break your stones and maybe get primer and top coat on the car the way it is ?
maybe ?????

but the car will delaminate in a very short time .
the reason is you have a etch primer under a polyester and the chromates in the etch will eat away at the polyester .

at this point once the car is stripped back down to bare . you could spray a coat of epoxy catalyzed primer to combat rust then use a regular build primer like the lesonal over that .

your other option is to just spray the feather fill (polyester spray filler) with no epoxy under it .

again if you were to spray an catalyzed epoxy you would have to wait about 6 months before you can spray the feather fill over it .

if you

ok now I am even more confused. Below is from their website

Many shops commonly apply self etching primer to bare metal surfaces. Most polyester fillers and Epoxy primers should not be applied directly over self etching primers. So what do you apply, if you need additional filling? Feather Fill G2 is the answer. This sprayable polyester filler is used over properly prepped steel, galvanized steel, aluminum, fiberglass, SMC, OEM finishes, body filler AND 1K and 2K Self Etching Primers. Includes liquid catalyst. Sprays wit your primer gun with 1.7-2.2mm nozzle. High solids, high build provides an excellent foundation for any paint system. Eliminates body filler staining.

so, if I am understanding correctly
bare metal
filler
epoxy
high build?
urethane?

I guess I am miss understanding the use of self etch

962porsche · 03-24-2015, 05:17 AM

nothing really goes over self etch but a sealer then top coats .

it could be done as you listed .
you could also do one coat of epoxy then your body filler then if any bare metal from doing your body filler work you spot in just over the bare metal with more (one coat) of epoxy . then over the body filler and spoted in epoxy your filler primer .

that is not to say you can't ever use a etch primer !
under other products because you can . but you have to wait a very long time to do so .
waiting a long time about a year the chromates in the etch will start to die away to a level where it will not eat away at the products you would apply over them .

if you just used all lacquer products you also would have avoided the problems your having now .
as lacquer goes with lacquer products .

you have to be very careful of auto body forums !
the reason why I started to reply to postings on this site is simply there was allot of wrong info people were giving out .
it's the same on the autobody101 forums .
on that forum there are a hand full of body guys that have not kept up with new products and are still doing things how it was done 25 and 30 years ago .
I was a BASF tech rep for many years to the auto marker .
I will tell you this you have to read the TDS (technical data sheets) of the products your looking to use .
you want to pick one product line and use the products with in that product line you have picked .
there are times you can use a product like feather fill that is onside of the product line you picked but you must check that the product is compatible with your product line .
asking some questions on forums is ok at times but I have found people giving advice on products they know nothing about .
so it always comes down to reading the TDS and if you have questions then go right to the makers of the products or the suppliers of the products .

Iciclehead · 03-24-2015, 06:59 AM

I don't even pretend to know anywhere near as much as 962, but certainly the Sikkens guys say exactly the same thing....use one product line, use it the way it is supposed to be used, pay attention to the TDS's, when in doubt or of something goofy happened like your situation, strip it back and start over.

I knew dick about painting when I started but thanks to some patient guys at Sikkens I was able to do it on my own. It was a pain at times to have to buy all the nice expensive Sikkens stuff exclusively , but I knew it would work and there were zero problems.....

Dennis

jimtweet · jimtweet's Garage

962, I am not arguing with you in anyway, and dont claim to know a tenth of what you do as this is my first full paint job.

I made a call to Evercoat tech line yesterday and Eastwood tech line.

After speaking with each tech for about 30 minutes both stated that I have not done anything wrong. Actually said I would have run into more problems if I used a 2k self etch cause it is much more acidic then 1k.

Both techs said the lesonal HS was the wrong product to use and that is what caused the problem.

Both techs said my next step would be to use Evercoat URO Urethane 2k primer and wet sand with 600, then basecoat clear.

Both techs also stated that mixing epoxy over self etch is a no no.

You are still reccomending against this?

Evercoat tech actually told me, featherfill MUST be sprayed over self etch and NEVER on bare metal.

tech sheet:

NOTE: All bare metal areas larger than one inch in diameter must be
treated with a high quality self-etch or epoxy primer.
CLEANING:
Surface must be clean and free of dirt, oil, grease and wax
To solvent clean raw, exposed fiberglass, it is recommended to clean
exposed area with acetone.
PREPARATION: Untreated Steel, Galvanized Steel and Bare Aluminum
All bare metals must be treated with a high quality self-etch or epoxy primer
prior to the application of Feather Fill G2
Follow paint company’s recommendations for surface prep and recoat of selfetch
or epoxy primer

962porsche · 03-25-2015, 03:01 PM

i can not make any comment about lesonal as i don't use it in my shop nor ever will .
could that be the trouble ?? maybe but i don't think so ??

in no way do you want to use epoxy over a etch primer . their should be no question about that !

i did look at the G2 tds and it does state the same as you stated unlike the old TDS for feather fill .

as for a single component lacquer base product ever ok to use under a 2 part product .
i do not agree with that at all in any way shape or form .
we do not have any problems with a catalyzed epoxy (2 part) primer under the feather fill . but again we always wait a long time before we go over it with the feather fill .
my big concern is the lacquer based product you used on the bare metal .

if evercoat is telling you to use their urofill over the feather fill and lacquer based self etch then you should do so .
at least by doing so your staying with in one product line .
i would be very concerned about it still being solvent sensitive (looking like you put paint stripper on it ) when you spray the uro-fill .
or worse in a year or two from now ending up with your finish shrinking in and having rings where your having troubles now with lifting .

962porsche · 03-25-2015, 07:56 PM

so I needed to run up to my shop this evening .
I pulled up the TDS on feather fill .
what came up on the computer is a simple question .
when I talk about feather fill I'm talking about feather fill # 309 .
your talking about feather fill G2
(IT'S NOT THE SAME PRODUCT)

the G2 is nothing more then a high build 2K primer .
it doesn't and can't do the same job as feather fill does .
feather fill as I stated needs to go over bare metal feather fill G2 needs to go over a surfacer like epoxy because it's not a direct to metal product .

the lesonal though lifted the lacquer based self etch primer my personal feeling is even though it lift the primer it's not really the fault of the lesonal but the fault of the lacquer .
IMO the lacquer still needs to be removed .
I emailed my area tech rep for evercoat he said he will stop by my shop tomorrow after noon .

jimtweet · jimtweet's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by 962porsche

so I needed to run up to my shop this evening .
I pulled up the TDS on feather fill .
what came up on the computer is a simple question .
when I talk about feather fill I'm talking about feather fill # 309 .
your talking about feather fill G2
(IT'S NOT THE SAME PRODUCT)

the G2 is nothing more then a high build 2K primer .
it doesn't and can't do the same job as feather fill does .
feather fill as I stated needs to go over bare metal feather fill G2 needs to go over a surfacer like epoxy because it's not a direct to metal product .

the lesonal though lifted the lacquer based self etch primer my personal feeling is even though it lift the primer it's not really the fault of the lesonal but the fault of the lacquer .
IMO the lacquer still needs to be removed .
I emailed my area tech rep for evercoat he said he will stop by my shop tomorrow after noon .

Thank you so much