PLEASE HELP - DART in Denver did PPI and they missed rust and more
 

A friend of mine who is an Army veteran, hired DART in Denver as a fiduciary to do a PPI for 964 Targa, at a price of almost $50K, so this was not a bargain basement deal. He was buying out of state prior to shipping to CA a couple of weeks ago. DART offered a checklist (see attached) which including checking for rust, body damage, etc. DART missed rust (see attached pictures) and failed to secure the bottom plate when checking for oil leaks causing further damage. These were glaring issues that would have been easy to spot by any competent mechanic and now he is in for thousands of dollars to repair the problems missed by DART. The shop's owner simply does not care.

Upon confronting them, the owner of DART says it is not worth it to him to correct the problem. Please see the pictures of the DART checklist and the pictures attached of what DART missed. I am so disappointed in DART.

The car had rust in front of windshield bubbling up but they checked RUST - OK. They were supposed to check for oil leaks and when we go the car the bottom cover went flying off due to being unsecured after the check. The car had a cracked decklid that they did not disclose.

I don't have a copy of the original ad but it was presented as a lower mileage 964 with original paint and one ding in the rear bumper and a scratched rim.

Has anyone run into this with PPI? What do you recommend if you pay for a PPI and they miss glaring issues prior to purchase and you rely on them to help provide confirmation? I know there is such a thing as negligent inspection.

Sorry I can't be of much assistance, but wanted to let you know that none of the "attached" images are visible.

DART checklist
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1535490646.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1535490646.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1535490646.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1535490646.jpg

Was DART on the hook to fix these issues or just identify them for a PPI?

Post the original listing of the car for sale.

DART was to identify the issues listed on the checklist. Of course, that did not happen based on the obvious issues depicted in the photos.

Is there a written contract between your buddy and DART? I'd read it over to see what your recourse is.

a thorough PPI is in the hands of the administer, but the buyer needs to be diligent. was you buddy provided their bullet point sheet you link prior to the PPI? I can't read what you've linked it sideways and small font. was the car a customer's of the shop?


not all PPI's are created equal and you don't know of a bad one unless you've experienced a good one. I got one done out of state and I knew I was fuched when they called me to see if I wanted the oil and filter changed... seems legit. only I asked them if they were going to cut the filter open to look it over and what did the oil look like. he stated the filter cutting would be extra and he was not sure what the state of the oil was.!!! I knew the oil was due per the sellers declaration and he ended up having the service done on my behalf.

I was lucky in that the car and the seller were better than the "PPI" id paid for. plus, the cost of the PPI should be a hint. id ask more questions of the $200 PPI than the $500 one....

Not to say that the ppi couldnt have been a little more detailed (I'd be annoyed too), but those are pretty minor things. Yes that's rust but it's not even close to being serious. I'd advise your buddy to forget about it and enjoy his new car. If he was expecting perfection or paid a premium for what was supposed to be a 100 point car maybe he should take it up with the seller if it was misrepresented.

The last line on the inspection form pretty much says it all: "No guarantee is expressed or implied."

Worthy of note, though.

Did they provide good pictures?

Been in the game awhile. At our place the technician is mainly looking for safety issues and problems that will be an issue within a year. The sales side handles all the questions about paint thickness, past wreck/service history etc. It’s hard to catch everything in an hour or two. I am amazed at what people buy practically sight unseen.

It does sound like they missed a few things here, the under body panel coming off is not a good sign...

I have said it before and I will say it again...... always without exception go see what you are buying. End of conversation. If you can't go better expect things like this to happen. I have heard hundreds of stories like this........

This. I go to look at the overall condition of the vehicle, including paint and body. I pay for a ppi to give me mechanical condition including things like leakdown, engine and gearbox leaks, brakes, suspension, tires, etc.

I reiterate my request for the ad. I want to know how the seller presented the car. If this is some $25k bargain car my expectations are different than a $50k garage queen. The ppi tells me little without knowing that the buyer should be expecting in a car.

I have nothing to add, but how is Baezventures Join Date Dec. 1969?

Unfortunately the vast majority of people selling $25K bargain cars seem to think they have $50k garage queens and present them as such. Which means go look at it for yourself like Matt says.

But, on the bright side, your buddy has a new 911 to play with. And fixing the little things that are wrong with it is part of the fun. Hopefully the next repaint is of a higher quality than the last and that rust will be wiped out for good.

Agreed.

It occurs to me if the shop really was acting as a fiduciary then they would stand to lose whatever cut they were getting on the deal if it fell through? So then maybe getting them to perform a ppi wasn't the smartest move.

If the ppi was just a matter of course in a larger picture of actually acting as a fiduciary then I wouldn't expect it to be a "real" ppi that would compare to having one done by an actual 911 specialist.

There's a lot we don't know here.

but it is being surprised vs told of issues that may be the thing. at least it is for me.
I would rather ne told whats wrong than find out after you buy it, especially if you ask or have a PPI done.

like me, I was TOLD my 930 had RUF PC's in it. it does not. I don't think the PO lied on purpose, I believe he thought that based on posts he made in the past. it still took me a while to get over it and I still got the car for a fair price.
he did tell me it had an issue at cruise which was fine.

shops that do PPI's are not in the deal for a cut, they get paid up front.

shops will have a disclaimer that they are not responsible for THEIR mistakes.
much like if something is stolen out of the car while at their shop.
go get a house inspection before you buy one then discover you have termites. you wont get $$ out of the inspector

oh!! here is another good one.
a contractor had a company come locate cables here at work. I even told the guy where they were. needless to say one got cut, one that I specifically told him about.
the cable locating company did NOT pay to have to repaired. they had a disclaimer that they are not responsible for any cut cables.

There is such a thing as negligent inspection. You pay for a service and they are acting as a fiduciary, no different than when you buy a house and the home inspector misses issues on the roof. Would you be OK with it? If in the check box it says rust as an example and DART checks OK. Then the owner of DART says it's not worth it to him to correct the problem. What does that say about how they care about customers? Honestly, if you say you to a PRE PURCHASE INSPECTION and have criteria you count on and then they also fail to secure the under pan which shakes loose, is that OK?

And for the record, the car went for close to $50K. I don't have a copy of the original ad but it was presented as a lower mileage 964 with original paint and one ding in the rear bumper and a scratched rim.

Are you sure they even removed the underpan? Their form says no part of the carcwas disassembled. Your guy didn’t even pay for a leakdiwn on it, so there really isn’t a reason to remove it.

That is not MINOR rust. I guarantee once you dig into that, it's going to be a lot more widespread, and it's probably hiding a lot of other places as well.

Sounds similar to all listing, I am not sure that's out of the ordinary and then for those interested, that's where you go into the weed's of questioning everything and anything associated with car....Does your friend have a email trail of what he was asking about the car, besides a PPI.....really in depth questions

69 Porsche. Yes, he does a full email trail. West Point Military Academy Officer and very detail oriented.

I wouldn't pay $50K for anything without seeing it myself . . . .

I think in the case of missing obvious things that it's reasonable to ask for the cost of the PPI back, or some portion of it.... But it's not like you can have the shop that did the inspection pay for the repair of the car.

I wouldn't trust a ppi unless I did it myself.
I wouldn't pay $50K for a car without seeing it.
I wouldn't pay $50K for a 964 which I could not get rid of 10 years ago for 18K (unless it's a RSA)
but all that is academic at this point. Good luck getting the cost of the ppi back, that is not going to happen. As for the rust, fix it and call it lesson learned.

Agreed that the only thing you could possibly get out of this is the cost of the PPI back. While there's apparently some glaring things they missed, they know their disclaimer relieves them of any major responsibility.

I agree with ADDvanced that the rust pictured is not minor. It may seem minor on the surface to the untrained eye. The rust doesn't start from the outside and work its way in. It's the reverse of that. Seeing rust like that around the windshield tells me there's very high potential for much worse rust elsewhere in places like the front fender joints, headlight buckets, fuel filler recess, lower rocker panels,.......

What's lurking below in the windshield channel is the bad stuff and I can unfortunately guarantee you it will be much worse than what you see right now. I've done three old 911 windshields, two being garage queens (one a glass-out repaint) and the third a cheap repaint racecar. All of them had varying amounts of rust in the channel with none on the surface. The racecar actually had rust in ALL FOUR window openings but that didn't really surprise me given the mediocre quality repaint.

​That said, I agree it's pretty crappy that rust is a checklist item and something as glaring as the windshield rust isn't called out. It's not like rust is uncommon in this location-actually quite the contrary. ​

The PPI is such a crap shoot. You're supposed to be relying on someone with vehicle experience (which DART has with old 911s, and they've been infrequently on Pelican for a long time but their last post was 2014) to identify things that the average Joe Buyer doesn't have the ability to catch. That's the PPI's job. Primarily because nobody's going to let some Joe Buyer individual go wrenching on their car to check things over. Who knows what kind of skill set (lack thereof) Joe Buyer has to be farting around with the car? I know i'm stating the obvious but my point is that therefore the PPI itself needs a pre-purchase inquiry of their list of checks, to ensure that the inspection will cover the things you want it to. juanbenae said it well:

'id ask more questions of the $200 PPI than the $500 one...."

^^^ Yes indeedy to that but even the $500 PPI needs to be questioned before and after to ensure the potential buyer is aware of what is to be checked and to what level of detail. So after agreeing to the PPI and having it done, buyer should question it and not take it at face value. That is sometimes easier said than done (some shops can take offense to your questioning but so be it since you ARE paying them for their service) but you must question it to ensure you get a feel for how well the car was inspected.

As the others said, if you don't visit the car or the for sale ad doesn't have numerous detailed pictures? Your only insight into the finer details of the car is the PPI guy!

Good luck but you don't really have much recourse here.

"Please help". What do you expect us to do?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=74GdZs2Ilk4

The most relevant question here.

Your friend ended up with a bad deal. Happens every day.

Options :
1) continue to post in forums and expend mental energy. Harass business owner. Possible, but low probability outcome : refund of partial ppi cost.
2) sell car and take loss if you can’t find anyone to pay same price. Probability of outcome : high that loss will be experienced, but closure is certain
3) suck it up, learn from experience and live with or fix car. Probability of outcome : 100%

You’re never going to get made whole on this deal even if you got it to the highest court around. That’s the starting point to accept and work from.

The West Point grad will know all about plans and dealing with changes to plan. Buying a used Porsche is, and can never be, a risk free experience.

Still want to know how you got a joined date of 1969??

Maybe move the discussion to the appropriate forum?

Marketplace anyone?

:cool:

That’s where we discuss the value of cars. We haven’t seen enough pictures or details to make such an assessment.

i bought my porsche site unseen like an idiot...

i spoke to the shop that did the PPI prior to sale and they were not even close when the car arrived.
most of what they spoke of was 100% wrong.

i learned my lesson the hard way like may others.

rule #1 it is.

For everyone giving this dude a hard time, I think what he's asking is for advice from anyone who has had a similar experience, and in an air-cooled Porsche forum whose first advice is getting a PPI, I think it's a fair thing to ask. In the end, maybe there's nothing he can do, but he doesn't deserve scorn.

A bunch of people have bought cars from far away and hired garages to do a PPI. It's easy to look back 20/20 and name the 100 things they should have done, but I think it's a fair expectation for a PPI to highlight rust spots and give an opinion, it seems fairly clear that Dart did a shoddy job, whatever our personal opinions about how "bad" that rust is.

As someone mentioned on here, I'd look and see if there was a contract. The "no guarantee" statement at the bottom doesn't preclude obvious disregard or negligence. I'm not a lawyer, but I'd probably consult one.

First step for me is to get a real PPI from someone reputable that can tell you the actual condition of the car and the repairs needed. Make copies of the original listing, and any kind of communication from Dart about the PPI, then consult a legal professional.

I agree. I think this is pretty lousy workmanship that we can all now avoid thanks to this post. It’s a bummer that it happened and that the only recourse is probably just warning others.

He's backdated

If your West Point "friend" is so detail oriented, he should have bought a small insurance policy called an airline ticket, flown out, and seen the car for himself.

There's nothing complaining to this board is going to do to remedy the buyer's poor decisions...

Unless your single goal is to defame DART, then it's apparent you're working toward that.