Webcam 20/21 - no torque down low?

[Maxhouse97]

PO had put in Webcam 20/21s w/ a Steve Wong chip. Amazing power above 5k but not much grunt below 4k. Its great on the track, but daily driving is not as fun as I imagine it could be. Problem is I have never driven a stock 3.2 so I don't know. You hear about great torque down low for 3.0s but what about 3.2s? Is the cam a problem or is it just the nature of the engine?

Many have advocated for 964 cams. My ideal cam would be one that has a meaty mid-range but still gives you a reason to take it to redline. Is this a good description of 964 cams? I have stock headers w/ cat delete and 2 out muffler. It would be worth switching if I could have more of a 3.0 type power delivery (not that I have driven that either - going off anecdotes).

[Joe Bob]

Cam timing may be off....964 and 20/21 are good all around cams.

[chris.817]

I have your exact setup. When it was built, the cams had very specific timing requirements. The entire package dyno'd at something like 240 hp with perfect A/F numbers and pretty wide torque/hp curves.

I could not be more pleased....

[Maxhouse97]

Do you have a chip? I never got the chip tuned to the cams. Called Steve Wong and he seemed to think it wouldn't make that much difference.

Don't know if the timing is off because it goes liked a r*ped ape up above 5k...

[Rodsrsr]

+ 2 on cam timing. I run those exact cams and couldnt be happier.

[chris.817]

Yes I have the SW chip. I actually had his regular 3.2 chip and bought his custom chip to match the new cams, cat bypass and sport muffler. He never gave me the indication it was not worth it though maybe I didn't ask. I simply asked for a new one to match.

He did however return my call on the weekend to discuss so I believe he supported the change to the new chip.

Goes like stink. I get questions at the track about what kind of engine I have.

Seems like you have something amiss. Have it dyno'd and send the data to Steve.

[KTL]

Curious what the timing spec is on the 20/21 cams. What's the lift spec range at TDC overlap?

[john walker's workshop]

from memory, 1.9mm - 2.1mm.

[mnez]

Here's the specs.

[Maxhouse97]

OK I need to get it checked out then I guess. Not much torque down low like I said. That with my sticking second gear synchro makes it frustrating to drive (get bogged down in 2nd). You guys seem happy with the cams and I'm not so I need to get it fixed...

Anyone know of a dyno around Cincinnati?

[Maxhouse97]

Reviving this old thread - I'd like to make sure of this before I dump the money into a early valve adjust, dyno time, and custom programmed chip. I did not specifically mention to the last guy that I had adjust the valves that I had 20/21 cams, so he could have set the timing for stock cams. This is what I would like to know:

1. Could cam timing set to stock cams and not for my 20/21s really make that big of a difference and reduce torque below 4500 rpm that much? I mean this thing is dead below 4500. To the point that I have to drive around at above that to have a fun to drive car.

2. Would a custom chip make a big difference as well? Again SW himself didn't think so (which I think is great since he would profit from another purchase).

2. Is there a better cam for mid-range torque? While I understand that the folks above are happy with 20/21s, there is no doubt that the cam does move power up higher in the rev band. I am not tracking this car and would like to prioritize mid range torque for the street.

3. How complicated is a cam change? The engine needs to be dropped - how many hours and $$s?

My inclination is to believe that a new cam is needed to significantly move power back down the rev range for the street. But I'd like to hear what everyone thinks. Thanks.

[Canada Kev]

Valve clearance is the same regardless of what cam is installed: 0.004 inches.

[wildcat077]

Tony,

I'm going to be installing some 964 cams in my 3.2 to complement my headers over the Winter ... so far i'm into $350.00 for the cams and another $300.00 in cam timing tools and that doesn't include the metric dial indicators and all the assorted seals and gaskets yet !

Most likely another $600.00 for SW for a custom chip because i'll be using an Authotority MAF instead of my 25 year old MAF and a few hours on the dyno to set everything up correctly this Spring !

Not cheap but a good bonding experience with my engine
since i'll be doing the work on my own ... lol

Cheers !
Phil

[Maxhouse97]

Ok I had that wrong - should have said cam timing in terms of something that has been set wrong (and to stock settings instead of for webcam 20/21) that would cause a significant loss of torque. Should be fixed now. Thanks.

[Maxhouse97]

And I guess that takes out the theory about the valve adjust mechanic setting stock settings as I don't think that is touched during a normal valve adjust. So when they were installed that had to have been incorrectly adjusted (timing) for the theory at the beginning of the thread to be correct.

This makes me think even more that I need new cams. Thoughts?

[Tippy]

Sounds like the cams are severely retarded. Retarded cams move power band up, advanced move power down.

[s5uewf]

Before you sink too much time into your cams, you may want to verify your ignition timing is where it should be, as well. Takes only a few minutes to verify.

[E Sully]

Before you blame the cam is everything else set up properly?
Verify the basic settings first? Is the throttle linkage adjusted so that the throttle plate is closing the correct amount, and opens fully when the pedal is depressed. Is the micro switch on the throttle body set. Does the full throttle switch work. Does the car idle at 880 rpm. When idling, does the rpm drop when the cap is removed from the oil tank.
Check the ignition distributor. Are the rotor and cap wearing properly? Do the centrifugal weights move freely? Timing is set by the DME and chip, but does the rotor line up when the engine is at TDC?
This link will show you how to check the air flow meter with a 9V battery.
Air Flow Meter (AFM) - from "The 944 Motronic DME" by FR Wilk* ©2001 www.the944.com

[Maxhouse97]

Thanks Emery - I will check some of those things out. Although I do have to say I have no reason to suspect any of that is off. The cams were originally installed by a professional shop that I have no reason to doubt. The engine idles great and the car overall runs great. It's just that the power is up high in the rev range - and there is plenty of power up there, which again leads me to believe that the car is running fine, the cams are adjusted correctly, and that this is just the nature of high strung cams designed for the track and not the street. Maybe I'm wrong. Again I will verify that the car is running right.

Anybody run 964 cams? Or better has anyone driven 3.2s with different cams that could talk to which would provide the best mid-range torque? Would smaller headers ala SSIs provide the torque I am looking for and balance the high strung cams? Thanks.

[s5uewf]

When I had my 911 I had the same cams. Before installing these cams I had the stock cams and I got that "Carrera kick" around 4500rpm when the stock cams came on and there was a surge from there to redline. With the 20/21 cams (and the 3.4L P's &C's) I got a much more linear feel from the driver's seat, not as sudden of a kick , but definitely much more surge up top. The car was very responsive all over the rpm range, however. I hope you find the cause of your low end sogginess soon.