Yet one more squeaky front end posting...

[donagain1]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

I recall a thread where the sequence of dissasembly was outlined. Maybe someone can find that.

But, before you start, you may want to pinpoint the exact source of the squeek. A hose with one end held to your ear while someone else pushes the car up and down will work.

If you decide to remove your A arms here is the basic sequence.

Jack up and remove wheels and support on jack stands.

loosen and remove the torsion adjusting screw then pull off the torsion bar end cap.

Remove your sway bar.

Disconnect the ball joint from the bottom of the strut.

Pull out the torsion bars.

Remove the front A arm mounts.

Hey Gordon, thanks for your reply on this and the tips on the sequence, it's exactly what I was looking for to augment the Dempsey how-to article that shows the work on an older car. I jacked up the car and shot some Tri-Flow as best I could in and around the front bushings, lowered it, rocked the car up and down by the front bumper a number of times, and the squeak was gone. That helped me to localize the culprit, which was what I suspected from the start... the old rubber bushings. The Tri-Flow isn't a fix, and would no doubt not be especially good for the rubber in the long run, so I know that dropping the control arms to replace them at the very least is in my future.

I have a few followup questions to ask, if I may. Did you do an extensive overhaul/upgrade when you did this, or merely replace the bushings like for like? If you replaced the old ones with new rubber, did you "grease" them, and if so with what? If my ball joints display no looseness to them and seem tight enough to where they don't need to be replaced for other than "While you're in there" reasons, the struts and tie rods are left alone and not messed with, does merely R&Ring the control arms to replace the bushings necessarily mandate an alignment after reassembly? The rubber swaybar bushings also seem pretty crusty and should also be replaced, so the same questions applies to that as well.

In case Gordon doesn't see this, anyone else is invited to chime in with the answers. But please, bear in mind that I'm not particularly interested in upgrades for performance purposes (can't afford it anyway, thank you very much Wall Street!!!), and have no desire for this thread to become an advertising opportunity for parts manufacturers/suppliers. I just want the squeaky noises in my head to go away, and the easiest way to achieve it.

Don

[Trackrash]

Many times what will happen is when the rear A arm bushings get worn the actual torsion bar will rub. This is usually not to the point where the torsion bar needs to be replaced, but worth closely inspecting it for a grove that has been worn into it or any rust.

These front suspensions are a slippery slope. It really depends on a number of calls. If you are planning on keeping the car and know that every thing on the suspension is original you may want to do everything. Meaning new rubber bushings, as you are planning, the sway bushings as well, then everything else is up for debate.

Tierod ends and ball joints are tough to evaluate. They can feel OK but when the force of the car's weight on them may actually have some play. Check shock inserts for both play in the rod and any softness when you pull the rod up and down. Those can be something to seriously consider.

Other "while in theres" would be wheel bearings, brake hoses, and maybe even brakes. It is hard to know when to stop.

Rubber bushings don't use any grease and yes, you will need the alignment checked.

In my case, I basically rebuilt my entire front suspension. But I wanted to increase my torsion bar size and replace my entire strut assembly, probably not what you are planning.

[Tremelune]

Rubber control arm bushings are designed to flex as opposed to turn. You wouldn't grease them, but doing so now (since they're shot enough to start sliding) might solve your main issue for a spell.



If you take the front suspension apart you'll want to have the car aligned and corner-balanced once it's back together. This is true if you replace nothing, anything, or everything. It's 4-5 hours labor at a shop that specifically knows how to set up air-cooled 911s. This is where the while-you're-in-there starts...

Might also take a look at your shock tower mounts, if all this rubber is 40 years old, it's likely not behaving as well as it could. Steering rack internals, too...

[donagain1]

Thanks to you both.

[chrismorse]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

Many times what will happen is when the rear A arm bushings get worn the actual torsion bar will rub. This is usually not to the point where the torsion bar needs to be replaced, but worth closely inspecting it for a grove that has been worn into it or any rust.

These front suspensions are a slippery slope. It really depends on a number of calls. If you are planning on keeping the car and know that every thing on the suspension is original you may want to do everything. Meaning new rubber bushings, as you are planning, the sway bushings as well, then everything else is up for debate.

Tierod ends and ball joints are tough to evaluate. They can feel OK but when the force of the car's weight on them may actually have some play. Check shock inserts for both play in the rod and any softness when you pull the rod up and down. Those can be something to seriously consider.

Other "while in theres" would be wheel bearings, brake hoses, and maybe even brakes. It is hard to know when to stop.

Rubber bushings don't use any grease and yes, you will need the alignment checked.

In my case, I basically rebuilt my entire front suspension. But I wanted to increase my torsion bar size and replace my entire strut assembly, probably not what you are planning.

Mine started with a sticky caliper and a front end sqweek (rubbing rubbing torsion bar), so, down the slope...calipers, discs,bearings, ElephNt rubber bushings,strut sport hardness, Bilsteins, what the he11, quick rack, MC, pedal cluster, air to ft discs, bigger bars, S S brake hoses, ball joints, turbo tie rods.

Tremelune also makes a good point, if you are "In There", do everything that would require a new corner balance/alignment - you don't want to pay for it 2 or 3 times.

Good luck,
Chris

[donagain1]

Originally Posted by chrismorse

Mine started with a sticky caliper and a front end sqweek (rubbing rubbing torsion bar), so, down the slope...calipers, discs,bearings, ElephNt rubber bushings,strut sport hardness, Bilsteins, what the he11, quick rack, MC, pedal cluster, air to ft discs, bigger bars, S S brake hoses, ball joints, turbo tie rods.

Tremelune also makes a good point, if you are "In There", do everything that would require a new corner balance/alignment - you don't want to pay for it 2 or 3 times.

Good luck,
Chris

Ha,haha, haaaa, Chris! I guess going through the catalog here is like going to Costco when you're hungry... can't get out cheaply. Merry Christmas

[donagain1]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

Rubber control arm bushings are designed to flex as opposed to turn. You wouldn't grease them, but doing so now (since they're shot enough to start sliding) might solve your main issue for a spell.



If you take the front suspension apart you'll want to have the car aligned and corner-balanced once it's back together. This is true if you replace nothing, anything, or everything. It's 4-5 hours labor at a shop that specifically knows how to set up air-cooled 911s. This is where the while-you're-in-there starts...

Might also take a look at your shock tower mounts, if all this rubber is 40 years old, it's likely not behaving as well as it could. Steering rack internals, too...

Great GIF drawing of the rubber flexing, it makes perfect sense and illustrates the dynamics well. I do have a question about it... at what point in the arc of the control arm travel does the bushing have a neutral load? I mean, when is it at rest and not stretched. It seems that it would be when the car is jacked up and on stands when the strut/shock is extended, because that's how the arms with bushings attached are initially installed, ergo the bushing's "neutral" position. After installing and tightening in that position, the illustration suggests that things would torque and the bushing would rotationally stretch and remain that way when the car is lowered to wheels on the ground ride height, then stretch even more when bumps are encountered. Is it much the same as the torsion bars, where the bar has a neutral tension position so it can be removed, then pre-load when reassembled and lowered? Probably rudimentary questions, but I've only dealt with bushings in rear leaf springs before, so forgive me.

[RSTarga]

One would think that the torsion bars should be doing the work, not the bushing.

[donagain1]

Originally Posted by RSTarga

One would think that the torsion bars should be doing the work, not the bushing.

Yeah, I get ya.

[Tremelune]

I haven't replaced my bushings, but I believe they are supposed to be installed at a certain angle such that they're reasonably neutral when the car is sitting stationary. There are plenty of threads here if you can find the, and Elephant has some instructions and videos:

https://www.elephantracing.com/porsche/911/bushings-bearings-for-911/rubber-bushings/

The torsions bars to the lion's share of work, but people have reported that their rides get a bit softer when switching from rubber to low-friction bearings, so maybe there's something to it.

[donagain1]

Well I couldn't procrastinate and talk this project to death any longer, so I jacked 'er up, tweaked the jack stand positions to where I felt comfortable slithering beneath 'er, and started the front-suspension dismantle. First step was to loosen the sway bar brackets (yup, those bushings are toast too) and removed the belly pan shield. Step two was to release the tension on the torsion bars and remove the adjuster and its positioning bolt. As the struts (Boge, dammit) are hanging from the top mounting, it made sense to me to release the ball joint pin to the struts, so off came the nuts and washers for step three, and I shot an s-pot of Tri Flow into gaps around the wedge pin and let it set for an hour whilst I cleaned up some stuff I pulled off earlier. I threaded the nut back on as some posts suggested, got a long 1/2" extension as a drift and my persuader (4lb lineman's hammer) and started to wail on the nut. I was hoping for maybe a millimeter's worth of movement, but the thing pretty much laughed at me. I recon'd the situation and remembered that I had a Chinese knockoff mini air hammer with a punch chisel in the toolbox, and as it was late by then and I didn't want to PO the neighbors with the noise, I shot some more Tri Flow in there and called it a night.

This morning the air hammer rat-tat-tatted the wedge pins out in about 2.36 seconds. Step four had me placing the floor jack under the front hub (ya know, Harbor Freight's 6" cheapo fake lambswool polishing bonnet slips nicely over the round thingy on the jack and did a good job protecting my new brake rotors from getting scratched) and raising the strut up about three or so inches. With each pushdown on the handle it raised incrementally and more and more of the ball joint's upper mounting pin became visible. I was able to free the control arm by jiggying it with my free hand as I jacked. This, after spending the night reading forum posts by guys who had to use the torch or mash on the ball joint with pickle forks, it pleased me very much. With the control arms free, Step five had me removing the long rear mounting bolt and the three front bolts to drop the arms one side at a time. The sway bar was still shoved into its control arm bushing attachment, and I had left the torsion bar in. That allowed me to reposition myself to support the arm (made heavier by the sway bar) and lowwr it to the floor. Step five dot three was to slide the control arm a bit sideways and nudge the sway bar out of the bushings, which allowed me to reposition it and slide it out of the arm still up there, and Step five dot six was to drop the remaining arm. I won't say it was a piece of cake, but it sure went a lot more easily that it could have. Total actual "working time"... less than four hours.

There's a lot to do, so if your still with me, I have a couple of questions I need advice on. First off, I'd like to tidy up the aluminum crossbar, so I'm thinking of dropping i to give it a once-over. I haven't seen it addressed in any of the related threads, but it looks like the fuel pump has a bracket that bolts to the back of the crossarm. If I undo that bolt, will the fuel pump stay put, maybe supported by the wiring and fuel lines, or is it dangerous to let it hang?

Secondly, there seems to be some choices regarding parts, namely the ball joints and the control arm bushings. There's a $45 buck each ball joint, a $74 buck each one, the genuine Porsche ones megabucks, and a kit with two from Rennsport that seems to have all bottom nuts, star washers and cotter pins for $150. That's the same price as the Leffendorfer (or whatever the hell the name is, but with those you still gotta buy the castellated nuts for nearly $20 bucks each (I figure I'm going to maim the old ones when I remove them.)

As regards to the bushings, I want to cry when I see what Elephant wants for their kit at $229. Is the rubber REALLY any better than the Genuine Porsche bushings at $88 for four, or is it that the "proprietary installation tools" are worth the difference in price?

I'll pose the shock inserts question at a later time, but I guess I've got to drop (not literally) the struts to see if the Boge (is that Boge-ey and Bilst-EYE-n?) has internal or external threads first (I guess it makes a difference).

Thanks for listening.

[donagain1]

Bump... Forget the diary, but I'd REALLY like some insights into my questions. Thanks...

[Tremelune]

For the amount of effort required to replace these parts (taking into account adjusting ride height, alignment, corner balancing), I wouldn't bother with anything but the best possible parts you could put on the car.

It doesn't seem like you could go to wrong with Porsche or Elephant, but I can't speak to the comparative quality of any individual part. I'm curious to hear others opinions on Elephant parts vs Porsche/Prekom/Lemforder.

[Ayles]

Keep in mind the elephant front bushing kit comes with install tools that make it a pretty easy job. You will need to improvise if you buy another brand of bushings.

[donagain1]

Elephant @ $229
Porsche @ $ 88
Difference $141... That's a goodly bit of coin for the tools that I can turn out on my wood lathe and bore with a Forstner bit out of a block of wood in 20 minutes. I've gotta know if the rubber is that much better.

Thanks for weighing in. I think I should start another thread to ask about the parts, folks might have gotten tired of this one by now.

[Ayles]

Originally Posted by donagain1

Elephant @ $229
Porsche @ $ 88
Difference $141... That's a goodly bit of coin for the tools that I can turn out on my wood lathe and bore with a Forstner bit out of a block of wood in 20 minutes. I've gotta know if the rubber is that much better.

Thanks for weighing in. I think I should start another thread to ask about the parts, folks might have gotten tired of this one by now.

Id actually let you borrow mine. They literally sit in my work shop. Shoot me a pm when the time comes and I’ll drop them in the mail.

[donagain1]

Originally Posted by Ayles

Id actually let you borrow mine. They literally sit in my work shop. Shoot me a pm when the time comes and I’ll drop them in the mail.

Wow, that is darned decent of you and I may just take you up on the offer... COD, of course! I'll let you know!

[Ayles]

Its no problem at all! If you are doing turbo tie rods you are welcome to use my thin wrench as well.