Smoke detectors for dummies

[scarceller]

Put a rubber glove over the top of sensor plate, so smoke can NOT get into the air funnel and to the plate. Then install the rubber boot back onto the throttle body and the sensor plate, but leave the glove in place. The glove will simply be inside the rubber boot. Basically you are blocking the smoke from entering the sensor plate funnel with the glove. But you put the boot back on so it also gets smoke tested.

Hope that made some sense.

[mike sampsel]

Originally Posted by scarceller

Put a rubber glove over the top of sensor plate, so smoke can NOT get into the air funnel and to the plate. Then install the rubber boot back onto the throttle body and the sensor plate, but leave the glove in place. The glove will simply be inside the rubber boot. Basically you are blocking the smoke from entering the sensor plate funnel with the glove. But you put the boot back on so it also gets smoke tested.

Hope that made some sense.

I think it does make sense. Your saying put a rubber glove over the sensor plate it self so it seals between the plate and its housing? Guessing a latex/gorilla disposable shop glove would work too.

Brilliant, I'm too old for my own new ideas! Thanks, and to be clear for me, you suggest the glove over the plate, which is raised, on the right side of the photo below?

[scarceller]

Correct, you simply want a membrane at the top of that funnel, so smoke is completely contained in the rubber boot. Smoke will fill the boot but wont be able to make it's way into the air meter funnel. A glove will work well for this but so will any other plastic membrane you may have.

Keep in mind that you are looking for air leaks AFTER the funnel, that's where you want the smoke to stay. Because any air leak after the funnel will be considered un-metered air. Leaks before the funnel don't matter as much, these will still be metered by the plate in the funnel.

Originally Posted by mike sampsel

I think it does make sense. Your saying put a rubber glove over the sensor plate it self so it seals between the plate and its housing? Guessing a latex/gorilla disposable shop glove would work too.

Brilliant, I'm too old for my own new ideas! Thanks, and to be clear for me, you suggest the glove over the plate, which is raised, on the right side of the photo below?

[mike sampsel]

Originally Posted by scarceller

Correct, you simply want a membrane at the top of that funnel, so smoke is completely contained in the rubber boot. Smoke will fill the boot but wont be able to make it's way into the air meter funnel. A glove will work well for this but so will any other plastic membrane you may have.

Keep in mind that you are looking for air leaks AFTER the funnel, that's where you want the smoke to stay. Because any air leak after the funnel will be considered un-metered air. Leaks before the funnel don't matter as much, these will still be metered by the plate in the funnel.

So I want a glove over and on the top of the funnel and not between the sensor place and the funnel. Sorry to be slow here .. this is good stuff though

[scarceller]

Yes, put the glove right over the top of the funnel then put the boot back on right over the glove.

Originally Posted by mike sampsel

So I want a glove over and on the top of the funnel and not between the sensor place and the funnel. Sorry to be slow here .. this is good stuff though

[mike sampsel]

Originally Posted by scarceller

Yes, put the glove right over the top of the funnel then put the boot back on right over the glove.

Thanks Sal,

I've decided I will do this after I've removed the engine in a month or so. It will be a lot easier to get the glove on the top of the funnel then. Is searching for air leaks good to do with the engine out of the car?

Seems other pictures in this thread indicate it is.

[boyt911sc]

Mike,

Removing the “Pope boot” and installing a latex glove over and re-installing back the “Pope boot” to do a pressure is ridiculous. After you remove the “Pope”, all you need is a latex glove over the throttle body and plug the two (2) vacuum hoses. Take a look at JSZ’s pictures.

This is how you find the leaks. Just for the sake of demonstration, do the latex glove over the air flow sensor funnel and compare it with latex glove over the TB. Keep us posted.

Tony

[mike sampsel]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Mike,

Removing the “Pope boot” and installing a latex glove over and re-installing back the “
Pope boot” to do a pressure is ridiculous. After you remove the “Pope”, all you need is a latex glove over the throttle body and plug the two (2) vacuum hoses. Take a look at JSZ’s pictures.

This is how you find the leaks. Just for the sake of demonstration, do the latex glove over the air flow sensor funnel and compare it with latex glove over the TB. Keep us posted.

Tony

Thanks Tony,

Okay, learning from all these good ideas. I can get the glove on the throttle body with engine in SITU (I think), the sensor plate side is tougher as it is bigger. And the two vacuum hoses to plug are the big ones which go into the front (towards front of car) of the "Pope Boot"?

And JSZ's transmission is immaculately clean, so it must be a good method

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by mike sampsel

Thanks Tony,

Okay, learning from all these good ideas. I can get the glove on the throttle body with engine in SITU (I think), the sensor plate side is tougher as it is bigger. And the two vacuum hoses to plug are the big ones which go into the front (towards front of car) of the "Pope Boot"?

And JSZ's transmission is immaculately clean, so it must be a good method

Mike,

You need to do a partial drop to make room. There is a very limited space between the CIS boot and the engine bulk head. Additional space of 2” would be ideal to do the smoke or pressure test to locate air leak sources. This is a very simple operation that you seem to make it so complicated. Over come your anxiety and you will be fine.

Tony

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Mike,

Removing the “Pope boot” and installing a latex glove over and re-installing back the “Pope boot” to do a pressure is ridiculous. After you remove the “Pope”, all you need is a latex glove over the throttle body and plug the two (2) vacuum hoses. Take a look at JSZ’s pictures.

What is ridiculous about it? You take the boot off and seal the right (sensor plate) side of it instead of the left.

It is the same amount of work, and has the advantage of testing the boot and lines attached to it for leaks. Having a hard time seeing the down side.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by emcon5

What is ridiculous about it? You take the boot off and seal the right (sensor plate) side of it instead of the left.

It is the same amount of work, and has the advantage of testing the boot and lines attached to it for leaks. Having a hard time seeing the down side.

Emcon,

How many times have you done this test? Do us a favor and perform the test in situ and demonstrate for us. Removing and installing the “Pope hat” in situ is something you have to experience. The metering unit is not part to be tested for air leak because it operates at atmospheric condition. The vacuum occurs inside the throttle body and this is where you start the test.

I am just sharing the simple way to do it because a lot of people seem to know a lot by just reading this forum with very limited hands on experience. One way to find out is demonstrate your process and compare it with something.

Tony

[piscator]

This thread has been very informative. Thanks to everyone here!

Robert

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Emcon,

How many times have you done this test? Do us a favor and perform the test in situ and demonstrate for us. Removing and installing the “Pope hat” in situ is something you have to experience. The metering unit is not part to be tested for air leak because it operates at atmospheric condition. The vacuum occurs inside the throttle body and this is where you start the test.

I am just sharing the simple way to do it because a lot of people seem to know a lot by just reading this forum with very limited hands on experience. One way to find out is demonstrate your process and compare it with something.

Tony

You didn't answer the question. You have to take the pope hat off in any event, to put the glove/whatever on the throttle body, how is that any different than popping off the sensor plate side instead and sealing the sensor plate side?

I wouldn't use a glove, I would pop off the sensor plate side, and use some heavy duty saran wrap or something similar, slip it in, and put the hat back in place. You wouldn't even need to remove the hat, just lift it enough to work the film under it. Those Glad brand elastic bowl covers would be perfect, not sure if they still make them. You could even use a trash bag, it just needs to be flexible enough to seal under the pope hat when you pop it back in place on the sensor plate side.

There is a vac connection upstream of the TB, (the advance for the distributor) plus the big hoses down to the AAV and other emissions stuff. All this crap connects to the pope hat, and can be a source of unmetered air:



Seems silly not to check it, if you are doing a smoke test anyway.

[mike sampsel]

Well I took one for the team.

In SITU I tried Saran wrap, no joy it got holes in it. Then I tried a 1 qrt sealing bag on top of the venturi with air meter lever. With several attempts could not get it to seal as smoke kept on coming. So I will try again from the exhaust side when the appropriate device arrives.

And if no joy there, I will regroup after my engine is out of the car which is ~ one month away!

So, this means my capabilities are slightly below a Neanderthal, given some experts have claimed a cave man can do this

And the Pope Boot is appropriately named, for the forgiveness needed, after the constant swearing during the install

Still thankful for all the ideas here.

[boyt911sc]

Mike,

Do not use the exhaust to inject pressurized air. There is a likelyhood of disturbing the carbon deposit and the tiny debris could get wedged between the exhaust valve and the cylinder head. There are several places where you could do the injection safer than at the exhaust. BTW, I could not stop you from doing what you like to do. Good luck.

Tony

[mike sampsel]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Mike,

Do not use the exhaust to inject pressurized air. There is a likelyhood of disturbing the carbon deposit and the tiny debris could get wedged between the exhaust valve and the cylinder head. There are several places where you could do the injection safer than at the exhaust. BTW, I could not stop you from doing what you like to do. Good luck.

Tony

Thanks for sharing your knowledge Tony! Probably the throttle body and vacuum lines leading into it are safest. Thanks again, I won’t do the exhaust method.

I like it when the Dr wishes me good luck

[mike sampsel]

Well I removed the sensor boot (did a partial engine drop and replaced my stripped bolt with a new one) and plugged the two hoses, and put the obligatory blue work glove over the throttle body. Ran smoke up the dizzy vacuum line.
Found wiffs of smoke coming out of most of the fuel injectors, even though the spraying of carb cleaner/brake cleaner on them did not change the rpm. Also see some smoke, it appears, from the brake booster attachment. I will check things out and report.

Guess, I wonder if the injector o-rings should leak a little smoke or not, I used new o-rings on them?
Since the smoke test is forcing air in a different direction than vacuum would, perhaps some smoke from the injector o-rings is expected and not a concern?

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by mike sampsel

Well I removed the sensor boot (did a partial engine drop and replaced my stripped bolt with a new one) and plugged the two hoses, and put the obligatory blue work glove over the throttle body. Ran smoke up the dizzy vacuum line.
Found wiffs of smoke coming out of most of the fuel injectors, even though the spraying of carb cleaner/brake cleaner on them did not change the rpm. Also see some smoke, it appears, from the brake booster attachment. I will check things out and report.

Guess, I wonder if the injector o-rings should leak a little smoke or not, I used new o-rings on them?
Since the smoke test is forcing air in a different direction than vacuum would, perhaps some smoke from the injector o-rings is expected and not a concern?

Mike,

How much air pressure were you using for your test? A continuous supply of pressurized air 2~3 psi (less than 5 psi.) is more that sufficient to do the tests. There are several ways to skin a cat. The idea of including the metering unit using a latex glove or similar is very appealing. It looks good on paper. I tried that method too and you encounter several setbacks as you had experience.

So I stick to KISS (keep it simple stupid) until a better and efficient procedure is developed to replace the present method. The current method is primitive but it works specially IN SITU.

BTW, many recommend using propane or carb cleaner to locate these hard to find air leaks. Using pressurized air with or without smoke is more efficient and effective for locating air leaks. The difference is night and day.

Tony

[mike sampsel]

Hi Tony, it fills my glove and moves the air box flap. It’s supposed to deliver I PSI.
I thought I was the king of KISS methods, with plenty of Murphy’s law tossed in.

So what is the KISS method?

[Coastr]

Keep it simple stupid