Dual fan + water nozzle install on fender Mocal

[Discseven]

Tested temperature performance of fender Mocal with no fans against trombone (in '80 911 running stock 3.2.) Empirical find: Mocal wants forced air solution of some sort. Scoop'd air & ducting alone? Ducted fan(s)? Brushless EDF? Of infinite possible paths, am heading down install of two American Volts 6”rs on a shim. To see what adding water does for oil cooling equation, misting nozzle is going along for a ride. When all's said & done here, will return to temp testing. Idea being to complete the picture of what's doing what where oil cooling in front fender is concerned.

Mocal in use = 19 row 310 matrix (14 x 6 x 2.) 6” American Volt fan measure is 6 1/2” blade tip to blade tip. Shroud O.D. = 7.” Mounts stick out further. Fan thickness at center = 2 ½.” CFM per fan = 700. (Looked into Spals... size wanted = “discontinued.”) Car's front fender height = 23 Ό.” Wheel = 16” with 205/50/16 front tires. But for cooler and air scoop (in place of running light,) fender is stock.




Straight up front side view of cooler with no fan. In addition to temp testing, cooler's been installed to see what space there is for 2 platter fans. If that direction seems impossible, am going brushless EDF route. Main spacial challenge is headlight bucket---can see it in photo protruding towards cooler's forward face. Conclusion: 2 fans will work... snugly.




American Volt. As is, these pull air. Hardware to flush mount fan(s) to cooler is included + a few extra mounting dodads. If I didn't know better, would call these Spal. Powered up in hand to check air... thehy run quietly and volume of air moved is more than expected. Was thinking 700 CFM being exaggerated promo-specs. Am inclined to eat crow on that jaded thought.




Fan hub is flipped---puller made into pusher. Reason for flip = blades are cupped. Did reverse power without flip and fan still moves air. Didn't seem as much movement but could be mind playing tricks.




Once flipped, hub's proud of shroud by few mm.




Can shim between motor casing and shroud cage. Loosen 2 screws and access is had.






Am no air-flow specialist but looking at hub area compared to blade area on these small fans, seems to me that adding space between hub and cooler should allow improved air flow through more of cooler. Regardless of shimming approach, whatever space is given for raising fan(s) away from cooler's surface... that measure needs be subtracted from cooler's tire-side (when dealing with 2 fan install.) Measurements in head-file say don't raise top fan more than 1 1/2”. That measure is at peak of cardboard model made for test fit...




Fans are in working-position on cardboard and model's taped in working-position on cooler. Horns and their mounting brackets have been removed---deal with horns later. Cooler assembly is placed so: Height of cooler allows space for hoses to pass above if needed; cooler's as far forward as possible while allowing minimal clearance between top fan and bucket; bottom of cooler is forward so cooler's tilt allows maximum clearance to tire---including tire-to-cooler relationship during shock compression. Good idea to turn wheel wheel fully both ways when eyeballing clearance (as straight wheel is illusionary.)




Cooler's new tilt... clearly not what Mocal had in mind for 911. Making new hoses is on menu. If you're inclined to feed a side port cooler (such as this) through bottom port---so air bleeds upwards---photo shows how NOT to do this. Corrected: cooler's top port hose connects to hard line fitting that's closer to front of car---car's return pipe. Disconnected fitting in photo is car's oil feed line that (I humbly suggest) should connect to bottom of cooler. According to Mocal tech support, doesn't matter what hose is connected to what fitting. BTW, please never-ever take my commentary as me saying “this is THE ONLY and RIGHT way to do whatever!” If anything, please consider me always wrong, and enjoy process of thinking ideas/solutions through for yourself (perhaps referring to monkey-disc stuff in order to make your stuff better.) Top bracket supplied with cooler also needs remaking given increased distance between cooler's top and headlight bucket.




Can drill new hole(s) in tub for mounting cooler, or, use existing threaded factory mounts. Am going latter route. Mocal's stock bottom bracket stays in use for this. Two straps need making. “A” will hang from horn bracket mount. “B” from trombo's mount. Both those existing bolts = 13mm. Center-hole to center-hole measures I'm applying: A = 5 3/8.” B = 3 5/8.” Arrows point to where straps connect to Mocal's bottom bracket. “B” strap at tub needs 5 or 6 fender washers, 5/16-3/8” total stand-off. This is so strap can pass straight over tub's undulations. Alternative is to put complex bends in strap---discard “B” measure metal is bent. Longer 13mm bolt in tub at “B” location is good idea (given stand-off.)

to be continued...
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[lvporschepilot]

Was it a clearance issue with the tires why you're not keeping these as puller fans? Additionally, any reason you're not running a 44 or 50 row Mocal/Setrab unit? I believe even the 44 row has more surface area than what you're running. Good stuff though, I will follow this one regardless!

[GH85Carrera]

A fan is pretty easy. A water based cooling system will inevitably cause a mess. Maybe you can get a fine mist that evaporates before it makes a mess down the side of your car.

It will be interesting to see what your solution is.

[cmcfaul]

search for tupperware cooler as a water cooler solution. supposed to work well. it sprays water into the engine fan and cools the engine directly.

Chris

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by lvporschepilot

Was it a clearance issue with the tires why you're not keeping these as puller fans? Additionally, any reason you're not running a 44 or 50 row Mocal/Setrab unit? I believe even the 44 row has more surface area than what you're running. Good stuff though, I will follow this one regardless!

Was going to give pull a try IVP only because it seemed... wrong. Couldn't keep my head wrapped around idea of moving air forward into wheel well so went with push. Saw Mocal on Pelican and got on with it---quicker than I should have in retrospect. 14 x 6 x 2 (19 row) with 2 fans installed, as done, barely fits width and depth. Could go a little longer on height.

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

A fan is pretty easy. A water based cooling system will inevitably cause a mess. Maybe you can get a fine mist that evaporates before it makes a mess down the side of your car.

It will be interesting to see what your solution is.

Yeah, am curious to see mess you're referring to Glen---if it comes my way. If that's the case and water works well enough all around with that exception, somehow there must be a clean solution. Nozzle intended is misting unit typically used to cool open spaces. Droplets are very fine. My concern is there not being enough water. What did you use as a sprayer or whatever?

Originally Posted by cmcfaul

search for tupperware cooler as a water cooler solution. supposed to work well. it sprays water into the engine fan and cools the engine directly.

Chris

Thanks for Tupper note Chris. For reservoir, am temporarily using 5 gallon water bag placed in frunk If waterworks idea has wings, plan is to clean out car's stock water tank and plumb it cooling system.



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[Discseven]

Shim making:

Using: 1/16” X 2” “L” channel for skeleton. Thin sheet aluminum for skin. Rivets for fastening. Metal glue where skin & skeleton surfaces make contact.





Much of “L” skeleton is cut away for fans. Skeleton base sits against corner edge of cooler. Sheet metal skin will run down cooler's sides---a skirt---that “should” air-seal both sides of shim to cooler. Aim is to eliminate gel-sealant so if & when time comes to remove shim, is simple to do.




Threaded rod stabilizes sides. Double nuts on inside wall sets distance (between side walls.) Rod also serves to allow skirts to be adjusted/tightened to desired degree.






Shroud has a number of different attachment points---comes in handy. Overhangs get sealed. Check gap between blade-ends and shroud's inside wall. Far as I know, as that gap increases, fan efficiency decreases. Narrowing that gap is tempting. Because shroud's angle to blades is oblique, gap narrowing is easier said than done. I pass.




Hooked straps fasten to threaded rod with minor tension. Besides stabilizes mass, is good for skirt-sealing.




Shim's end panels that fold over cooler have been looped back on themselves to double up thickness at mounting ends. Drilling in cooler's frame... very easy to very quickly ruin cooler at this stage. Cooler's frame does not have much thickness so screws don't work well here---have already seen debris screen's screws loosen, and they were installed with lock, flat washers and blue Loc. Nut rivets would be better in all fastening holes in cooler's frame. Am doing this later. What small gaps there are between shim and cooler at end corners... will silicone seal those.




Thinking out loud, asymmetrical shim is possibility. Did not measure where bottom fan sits in relationship to bucket so not 100% sure this works. Cooler size in use has vertical play space so compared to my placement of cooler, lower positioning is possible for asymmetrical approach.




+/- Connections in wheel well are with these waterproof junctions. Electric swap is done to complete conversion of pull fan into push---blue wire's now ground. Black's power. Each fan is given its own junction.




Power (red) runs from batt through inline fuse to manual ON/OFF switch in dash. From switch, wire runs to forward right corner of frunk. Have divided wire in two just before passing it through tub into wheel well---realize now this was not necessary. Forcing power wires through tub alongside existing factory cable has split open nozzle of grommet on other side---old rubber. Grommet above brass fitting was closed with membrane. Membrane has been cut out so water hose can make passage here. Should have put power wires with water hose---would be tight fit but doable.

Not liking fact that I've run power for fans directly from battery. Would prefer to run from an ignition switched circuit but all my ignitioned fuse slots are used. Would much prefer fans to shut down when ignition turns OFF. Any ideas on how to solve this puzzle would be appreciated.

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[lvporschepilot]

That is awesome. Love it

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by lvporschepilot

That is awesome. Love it

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[stownsen914]

Originally Posted by cmcfaul

search for tupperware cooler as a water cooler solution. supposed to work well. it sprays water into the engine fan and cools the engine directly.
Chris

Rubbermaid. One of Grady’s innovations, I think.

[Discseven]

Am back to hoses...



Mentioned earlier in thread this photo showing azzbackward (IMHO) hose connections----provided one wants to feed cooler from bottom up allowing air to bleed through car's top return line. In nutshell, car's oil feed line is bottom of the two running below car (in '80 911.)

Regarding new hose making, am inclined to believe longer hoses are better than short. Length does a few things well here. First, it gets around having to make a perfect short hose---perfect measure so as not to pull cooler back or push it forward. Must bear in mind there's around 3/16” clearance top fan to bucket. On cooler's other side, if hose pulls cooler... clearance to tire diminishes. Sure, perfect hose can be made, but here's kicker. With fans on cooler, access to them is likely going to be wanted at some point(s). With looper hoses, cooler can be tilted back or dropped down without disconnecting oil lines. Not a big deal to disconnect/reconnect oil lines but if no need to and cost for longer hose is of no consequence... no brainer IMHO. Concerning hose cost, rubber obviously does not compare to braided stainless. My car being street, I have no hesitation going with rubber. Have seen a number of oil plumbing projects on PPF. Admire thought, crafting & dollars that goes into well done braided stainless solutions.






Mocal fittings = hardware art... worth recycling. Dremel cuts collars off. Fittings along with new hose length measures go to British American Transfer. Advise making sure they have collar size you want or back order can take weeks. New hose lengths = 29” 46.” These measures include my giving an extra 5” to each hose. Prefer being too long than too short.


Waterworks



Self priming, auto high pressure cut off, 80 psi diaphragm pump. Is Velcro'd inside on tub's wall just ahead of spare tire.




Temporarily using 5 gallon waterbag placed in frunk. If water proves convenient to manage and worthwhile in terms of dropping temps more than a few degrees, plan is to use car's stock water tank in place of bag. Fitting has been placed in bag's cap for hose. Glass fuel-type filter is inline after pump, before nozzle.






Stainless, dripless nozzle (from mistcooling.com) is screwed into plastic end cap end. End cap's on NPT elbow with 3/8” barb. Out of box, this 0.020” nozzle does not work with 80 psi pump. Two ways to look at this---either pump is too weak or tension of drip sealing spring inside nozzle is too great. Instant solution = remove dripless hardware from inside nozzle. Nozzle mists very nicely then... but... if water reservoir is higher than nozzle, reservoir slowly drains out nozzle when system's switched OFF. Solution = swap stock microspring for one with about 1/6th the tension. Solving spring puzzle got rather costly (for something no bigger than pen tip.) Minimum orders was the killer.




Pump ON/OFF = bottom switch. (Top switch checks brushless electronic ducted fan serving AC.)




Nozzle positioned into shroud is few mm above blades. Grommet-mount allows nozz to be easily placed/removed---no telling what “refinements” lie ahead.

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[GH85Carrera]

Karl. as always a fascinating build. Your Google search powers are awesome for the fittings and parts you need.

I like the toggle switches between the gauges. Where did you get those? Part Number for em?

I have never seen an oil temp gauge that has the 250 temp at 9:00 position and goes up to 340!!! Wow, that is like a tachometer that goes to 11,000 RPM on a 911.



I had to go look at mine. Any time my oil temp gets to 210 I turn on a the fan. It never get above 220 even in Key West in July in stop and go traffic.

When I was playing with water cooling the oil cooler, I was using a very low tech, Rube Goldberg pump up pressure sprayer for lawn chemicals. I bought a cheap one, and if the temps got high, I would stop, and hose down the oil cooler. That worked, but was a not a real practical solution. I took it with me on the trip through the deserts of Arizona and Nevada that go up and over the mountain into San Diego. It is a long uphill climb in hot temps. My temps never got about 215 so I just left that sprayer in my hotel room and did not bother to haul it home.

After I put the fan on, no more problems. Next year Porsche Parade is in Palm Springs for last week in June. It will be 115 or so and a real test for my cooling system, and the the AC. I have full confidence in both to keep the engine and the cabin cool.

I can't wait for your finished build and the results you achieve.

[Reiver]

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Karl. as always a fascinating build. Your Google search powers are awesome for the fittings and parts you need.

I like the toggle switches between the gauges. Where did you get those? Part Number for em?

I have never seen an oil temp gauge that has the 250 temp at 9:00 position and goes up to 340!!! Wow, that is like a tachometer that goes to 11,000 RPM on a 911.



I had to go look at mine. Any time my oil temp gets to 210 I turn on a the fan. It never get above 220 even in Key West in July in stop and go traffic.

When I was playing with water cooling the oil cooler, I was using a very low tech, Rube Goldberg pump up pressure sprayer for lawn chemicals. I bought a cheap one, and if the temps got high, I would stop, and hose down the oil cooler. That worked, but was a not a real practical solution. I took it with me on the trip through the deserts of Arizona and Nevada that go up and over the mountain into San Diego. It is a long uphill climb in hot temps. My temps never got about 215 so I just left that sprayer in my hotel room and did not bother to haul it home.

After I put the fan on, no more problems. Next year Porsche Parade is in Palm Springs for last week in June. It will be 115 or so and a real test for my cooling system, and the the AC. I have full confidence in both to keep the engine and the cabin cool.

I can't wait for your finished build and the results you achieve.

Thanks Glen. Googlesearch is an amazing tool to say the least! Hard to remember when it didn't exist.

Switchs are from Intertex Electronics. Philmore 30-103020 Rnd Paddle Lever Toggle Switch, SPST. 3A@250V, ON-OFF. SKU = PH-30-10320. Do not solder wires to the poles on these. Internals will melt/deform.


Temp gauge is stock with hard overlay stuck onto it.



Note fade on needle. Is time to paint when gauge is in hand.



Overlay from NewVintageUSA. $30. EDIT: Beat me to it Reiv!

In 95+ ambient, my temp's been running around 250---hate to look at that. Eager to see what happens with fans mounted.

.

[Discseven]

Stock horns were removed to clear space ahead of cooler. Rather than relocate those, small pucks are going in.







As I install pucks, looks like stock horns could fit vertically (where pucks are.) Puck's sound? ...If you're tone-hooked to classic 911's trumpet sound, good chance you won't like these. Not a great difference but enough to sense “something's not quite right.” Volume... MUCH! Single bracket needs making for install. Have connected to existing threaded hole in car's bumper. Bracket requires stand-off to clear weld on bumper in order to sit bottom-flush to bumper. Car's existing horn wires are plug & play for these pucks.






Strapping = 1/8” aluminum. New top bracket offers no consequential up/down support for cooler---so static weight + any/all acceleration is majorly on cooler's bottom mounts. Cooler with 2 fans mounted weighs 12 lbs. Mocal's stock bottom bracket stays in use. Forward strap is 2” width. Rear is 1.” (Originally made both straps 1" width. Changed front so Mocal bracket had full-flush face to sit against.) Center hole measures for hanger straps are noted earlier in thread. Single, single-sided support point for bottom mount... doesn't look good. Put a good bit of force---down & up---on outer, floating end of Mocal bracket... very solid. Right end of Mocal bracket just clears valance's top lip. Power wires and water hose hang down. Fan ground is placed on existing threaded hole in bumper---13mm bolt slot---just above where horn bracket mounts to bumper.




Looper hoses... they fit well. 5” of hose length I added (to each length) to be safe rather than sorry... didn't need to do that. Optimal hose measures for this install are in area of 25”and 42”... not shorter IMHO. Oil feed & return connections = Incoming oil from car's bottom feed pipe is connected to cooler's bottom port... cooler's top port is connected to car's return line ('80 911.)

If you're thinking about a cooler install, think top or bottom ports... not side ports. My point: look at side-space given to elbows (that could be cooler volume.) Am beating myself up slightly for side port decision I made but ultimately... temp is bottom line.




Headlight bucket to top fan. Not quite the right camera angle to actually see clearance---obviously it's tight. About 3/16.”






Am back to temp testing this afternoon provided weather is suitable---looking for 90+ dF and rain... in Lauderdale. (Fourth photo above, can see where temp sensors are wrapped to hard lines just behind fittings. Silver threads are sensor cables. All has remained in place while dealing with cooler.) Goal = 190ish dF read at dash gauge. If that's not accomplished, journey continues.

Temp test thread: Oil cooling test --- Stock trombone vs Mocal radiator
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[Discseven]

Temp testing... rained out yesterday.



Same nozzle in use in vid as for cooler... but not running 1500 psi. Will bump water volume up by adding 2nd 0.020 nozzle and changing water pump from 100 to 300 psi. Have nozzle. Pump's ordered. Think trick is to balance cooling performance against water consumption.



DDP 5800. Factory sets to 200 psi. Can adjust to 300 max.

.

[Discseven]

Results to date: Oil cooling test --- Stock trombone vs Mocal radiator post #67.

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[Discseven]

Been away from home for a while. Am back to project with second, larger pump in hand, and a few other things to deal with. Smaller, 80-100 psi pump (adjusted to 100 psi) was installed and run for first water cooled temp test. Result: oil temp as read on dash gauge went from 250 dF (trombone) to 210 with Mocal + fans + 1 water nozzle. Now, purpose of testing & running 200-300 psi pump---model DDP 5800---is to see what it's capable of and if target of 190 dF can be reached. Flow comparisons between the two pumps use the same 0.02 nozzle...





80-100 psi pump. Discharge streams from nozzle into small water pellets---barely qualifies as “mist.” Per minute flow volume = 28 ml.





200-300 psi pump. Discharge is fine mist/fog. Flow is forceful enough to create air current. Per minute flow volume = 56 ml.



Each time pump is shut down there's residual flow as hose depressurizes...



80-100 psi residual.




200-300 psi residual.



Having been focused on dealing with oil temps, I've not concerned myself in detail with the convenience or lack thereof concerning water filling and if car's water tank could be used. Am still using water bag placed in frunk. Now, drawing near to 190 dF temp target, water attendance comes into focus. With the flow measurements above, and based on 4 gallon (out of 5 gallon bag) reservoir, run time for each pump is estimated:

Run time:

80 – 100 psi pump with one 0.02” nozzle --- estimated run time = 9 hrs. *
3785.41 ml per gallon / 28 ml per minute flow volume = 135 minutes run time per gallon

200-300 psi pump with one 0.02” nozzle --- estimated run time = 4.4 hrs. *
3785.41 ml per gallon / 56 ml per minute = 67 minutes run time per gallon

* Residual flow not included.

Variables still exist to be manipulated so this math is only for a current comparative reference.





Cooler --- While fastening fan unit and debris shield to cooler, at some point I nicked cooler's core when drilling holes in frame. Result = #2 Mocal/Setrab is in hand. For this round of hole making, am using drill bit collar/stop. Kicking myself for not doing that initially. Everytime cooler comes out, trombo goes back in.




Metal screws were originally used to secure debris screen and fan unit to cooler. These screws come loose even with lock washers installed. Frame lacks enough meat for screws to bite. Am putting blind nut rivets in place of all screws. Bolts with Loctite can now be used.




First water temp test was done with single nozzle installed in top fan (top being when cooler sits installed.) To theoretically improve water distribution throughout cooler, a slot and nozzle holder has been added to bottom fan housing---2 nozzles can now be installed. Was planning to run 200-300 psi pump with two 0.02 nozzles but given consumption seen (above flow results), doesn't seem practical for street. Weight of water aside, might work great for 2 hour race. Plan for today = install cooler with two smaller orifice nozzles along with 200-300 psi pump. After install, will continue temp testing and begin tracking water consumption.

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[patkeefe]

Why are you using an arbitrary figure of 190F for your cooler, or am I wring in reading this?
It seems the Mocal with two fans would be sufficient, without the evaporative cooling. Also, forget the misting...what you want is water sprayed directly onto the coil so it can evaporate. Cooling is done via phase change of the water.

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by patkeefe

Why are you using an arbitrary figure of 190F for your cooler, or am I wring in reading this?
It seems the Mocal with two fans would be sufficient, without the evaporative cooling. Also, forget the misting...what you want is water sprayed directly onto the coil so it can evaporate. Cooling is done via phase change of the water.

Pat... as I know it 190F is regarded an optimal oil temp. Surly opinions will vary on this. Is number I'm choosing to have a target to work towards. Without adding air flow of some sort to Mocal cooler it proved no better than stock trombone. Adding fans to cooler dropped temps. Fans + water dropped temps more. In part this is an exploration so pushing the envelop for the sake of doing so (and seeing what happens) is what's happening here---water is part of that "push." As I see it, misting works well. The water is nicely dispersed and does wet the cooler on contact. Within the mist, air temp is also lower than ambient, so in addition to evaporation off the cooler the air passing through the cooler... that air is cooler than ambient. If you have a better approach... I'm all for it. What would you use?

[patkeefe]

First off, I applaud your efforts in determining the heat transfer from the front cooler.

Fans on the Mocal should be more than sufficient. I think the water is overkill. I also believe the arbitrary use of 190F at the cooler is a bit low. What are your return temps from the Mocal going back to the external thermostat? IIRC, the external thermostat doesn't even start to open until approximately 180F, on a fully functional thermostat.

I think I went down the same path you are on a number of years ago:
Front Oil Cooler/High Oil Temps

From what I remember, there are a lot of variables regarding oil temps, which start internal to the engine and work their way out to the coolers. I am guessing Porsche has a range of acceptable oil pressures, and temperatures, which are directly related to the tolerances and clearances internal to the engine. After all, oil temperature is a function of internal friction, and how much work the oil is required to perform to cool the engine.