Camber adjustment for front wheels 88 Carrera

[911TerryT]

Needs some help with camber for my front wheels on a 1988 Carrera. I am pretty familiar with ride height adjustments for front and back and have set up a few cars in the past...mostly around stock height so not a lot of bump steer and other suspension changes needed. I am stumped on why I cant get a negative camber less than - 1.5 on the driver side of my 88 Carrera. The ride height of the car is set pretty much to USA height so lowering is not a cause. I currently have - 1.5 on the driver and -.5 on the passenger. I have adjusted the driver side shock tower to its max(and a little more by opening up the adjustment cut outs in the body which allows the shock tower to move more outward) I am a whisker from being butted up against the body on the driver side and a little outward on passenger. I got a little movement outward on driver side and I adjusted the front up an additional 1 inch but the camber did not follow suit like you think it would. The car is stock suspension with 70K miles...no signs of ever being hit or damaged. So....could I have a bent component? Should I adjust the passenger side to -1.5 to match and call it a day? Rear is -1 on both sides. I have the front about 3/4 inch higher than rear(was set up about level or back up a little when I purchased) The car drives pretty straight down the road...very minor pull to the right after I do some adjustments. I have not touched the toe yet.

Any input is appreciated...thanks, Terry

[mo-mon]

Same thing with my '88, so nothing bent. I'd match the other side & call it a day.

[icarp]

are you sure the car is on a dead level area ? what ever the difference between the floor and level will either get added or subtracted from your reading .
ian

[911TerryT]

Ian,
All my adjustments and measurements are on a level lift. I always drive the car after adjustments to let it settle in and put back on lift to measure. Just curious, any real downside of running -1.5 camber up front? Probably put 1K miles on a year....I am trying to do more miles but not much luck.

[icarp]

Camber I like to run 1.25neg up front and 1/2 * more neg in the rear , so 1.75* neg
This is with 205 - 55- 16 and 225-50-16
My preference is for 15" wheels 205-60-15 and 225-60-15 rear
I just installed a set of the 16" on a customer car, same numbers all around .
I set my level area with a laser and my scales always go in the same place . Within .030"
Ian

[icarp]

Check for bent struts or inserts . I still think the numbers are out because of not being perfectly level
Check for diagonal measurements in the trunk , from strut bolts to seams up front
my car is an SC to a 73 RS clone

[wareaglescott]

Originally Posted by 911TerryT

Ian,
All my adjustments and measurements are on a level lift. I always drive the car after adjustments to let it settle in and put back on lift to measure. Just curious, any real downside of running -1.5 camber up front? Probably put 1K miles on a year....I am trying to do more miles but not much luck.

If you like how it drives at negative 1.5 then go for it. Tire wear should be of zero concern to you because at only 1000 miles a year you should replace the tires based on time well before wear becomes a factor.

[911TerryT]

Ian,
Thanks for the input. You are talking about a level surface for measurements correct? Side to side? Hence if left side lower I probably would have more neg camber and you mentioned it correlates to the floor slope. I will laser the lift again today.

[icarp]

Yes, I am talking about a level surface for measurements, Side to side. Where the tire rests , that contact spot . Just imagine if the car were 1* out of level . Driver side high and pass low , the drivers side would read more neg camber by 1* and the pass side would read 1* less.
A visual I use to have it sink in, is to take both of your forearms , hold them vertical , then rotate or tilt it 10* or 20* to the right . Have your elbows at different levels, looking at your arms , assuming that you are looking rear to front of a car, you will see that one arm has more negative camber and one more positive . A trapezoid , Did I make any sense ? So shimming the wheels to all the same height is what you want , even front to rear and diagonal , all the same

[911TerryT]

So the lift is spot on level. I figured I would match the passenger side and call it a day. Only problem is I cant match the driver side as I am out of adjustment on both sides. I am .9 off on camber...-1.5 driver side....-.6 on driver. I am always disappointed in the lack of camber adjustment the factory set up gives you. Anyone have experience with some aftermarket camber adjustment products?
Thanks

[mo-mon]

I don't understand your last post. You should go for -1.5 camber on the passenger side so it matches the drivers side.

[911TerryT]

I am unable to get to -1.5 on passenger side to match the driver side. Both adjustments are maxed out in opposite directions. Driver side up against the fender. Passenger side all the way towards middle of car. I may drive some more to see if there is any settling left. I got some neg camber on the passenger side but very little...maybe needs driven more to settle in.

[Trackrash]

It's either a bent strut or something is loose in a shock, bearing or joint.

[stlrj]

Originally Posted by 911TerryT

The ride height of the car is set pretty much to USA height so lowering is not a cause.
Any input is appreciated...thanks, Terry

This is very confusing because all Carreras came at European height to begin with, including all those delivered to America. And since front camber is mostly a function of ride height, it seems your ride height must be quite a bit lower than what you assume. Also, 1.5 degrees camber is a precise a measurement and ride height is also very precise as measured in millimeters.

Cheers,

Joe
87 Carrera

[Walt Fricke]

1) Struts can bend, but only to give more camber. Checking for this should start with the side with too much camber. What happens is that the forged axle etc spindle assembly, which slips onto the strut tube before a couple of small welds, kinks the tube at the top of the spindle assembly. When able to see things (wheel off apt to be helpful), you should see the kink in the tube on the outside top of the spindle. On the inside top you might see a gap. Looking at the other side should help you to see if there is any visible difference.

This can also be measured - the angle between the axle's axis and the strut axis -, but that tends to call for removing the front hub.

After a vigorous day at the track someone remarked on how much front camber I had. I hadn't noticed, but looked. Wow. Both struts bent. Couldn't remember anything which might have done that, but there it was. I got the 95 miles back home without going through the cord on the insides of the front tires, replaced the struts, and never had such an issue again despite lots of track miles. On its race cars of that era Porsche welded around the tops and bottoms of the spindle collars, and added a gusset. Tubes are strong, but subject to buckling when stressed and a force pushes on a side.

I'm old enough to have gloried as a youth by being able to crush the then steel beer cans with one hand. A finger pushed a side in some while the others squeezed the ends together. Not full ones, of course.

2) Struts can be straightened, but probably cheaper/simpler just to find straight good used ones and replace.

3) Since you have a good platform, you could take a bunch of chassis height measurements to see if there is twist in the chassis. I'd not worry about what the measurements should be, but think more of whether things are all in the same plane, or parallel planes. Chassis can be straightened, but by shops with the rigs to do it, not at home in a garage I think. Though you have a platform lift, which might allow holding one side at one height while pushing up or pulling down on the other? Or maybe that would just distort the lift?

4) Have you measured your ride height using the method Porsche shows in its manuals and specs? Always worth doing when troubleshooting.

[Trackrash]

Walt. #1. Would hitting a curb bend the strut to give more positive camber? Is that what you are saying? I believe that is what happened to one of my old struts.

BTW, it seems to me that some of the struts flex along the tube under stress. I found that my front end was much more solid feeling when I added gussets to my struts.

[911TerryT]

Walt,
Thanks for the info. Just curious, sounds like you replaced both struts with? New/used/Bilstein?/did you go with raised to get lower with height?

I have used the Porsche height measurement from center of wheel and torsion bar.

[Walt Fricke]

Hitting curbs can give more negative camber - i.e. the tire runs more on its inner edge. That's the standard convention for terminology.

Color me dubious that one could notice the difference driving between a gusseted strut or not on the track, much less the street. I don't see there being any significant flex there. Then again I've felt that about shock tower braces (though my track cars all got them).

I race this car in a stock class, so the replacement struts were stock as well - Boges, since that's what I had and could least expensively get used. I had to replace one of the shock/strut inserts, too - the crease in the strut tube also creased the shock insert housing, rendering at least the adjuster (Koni reds)non-functional. I ended up with struts from a 1984, with external top cap threads, but all that stuff can be made to work.

Bilstein struts are what you want if you are building a track car and rules (if any) allow raised spindles. Boge's aren't a straight tube, so you can't cut the welds and slide things up. Raised spindles allow better suspension geometry at lower ride heights. Lowering a street car below Euro height doesn't strike me (on reflection looking back)as a good overall idea - always worrying about driving over curb cuts to get gas or groceries or a motel for the night.

I still don't know why both bent. I don't think I had the front way too low then, though that might have done it. I was driving it to work every day, navigating my driveway. But I damaged the next set of shocks (Koni yellow adjustables)by having things too low -running out of travel damaged those adjusters.