Longhood vs IB handling: What year transitions most significantly?

[Maxhouse97]

Thanks for chiming in Bill, your opinion is very much appreciated. I like the fact that more people are weighing in with the thought that I can get close to if not replicate longhood handling with my 87. I would go backdate as I love the aesthetics of early cars. This is now making me reconsider selling my car.

[targa72e]

As a quick reference my 78 SC that I used as a street/track car weighed 2390 with half tank of gas. This was a non sunroof coupe, no AC, light weight seats, backdated exhaust,, etc. Had to bolt 100LBs in and run with 1/2 tank plus to meet weight for Clubrace. If you strip a late car down to the same features that were typical of early cars they are not that far apart weight wise. I also had a 72 at the same time 7/31 in the tranny made a big difference, especially on the street. I would not give up the ability to run larger (more modern tires avalible) wheels and aluminum case engine to go with early car. I think if you looked at minimalizing your currently car, Maybe add fiber glass bumpers, hood and deck lid you could get quite a bit lighter.

john

[sundevil64]

There is definitely a difference as all have stated. I seems to be a combination of things with weight being at the center of it. Driving my 73 targa in Texas hill country is so much fun because it is so light and responsive compared to my SC or my 78 930.

You don't want to go too light as that can have a negative affect towards what you are looking for. There seems to be a sweet spot at around 2200#-2400#. I got my 930 (no sunroof) down to 2560# and it was noticeably more responsive.

I think you can do this with a 74 car if you shave some weight where it counts, on the ends and unsprung weight. bumpers, decklids, and wheels. I would not suggest fb fenders on a street car for safety and rigidity reasons. I put 15" cookie cutters on my 85 Targa from 17" and huge difference in handling with regard to "tossability".

Keep those things in mind. Find a non-sunroof nb car and make adjustments as you go until you are happy.

Good luck on your journey.

[paul_howey]

Originally Posted by targa72e

As a quick reference my 78 SC that I used as a street/track car weighed 2390 with half tank of gas. This was a non sunroof coupe, no AC, light weight seats, backdated exhaust,, etc. Had to bolt 100LBs in and run with 1/2 tank plus to meet weight for Clubrace. If you strip a late car down to the same features that were typical of early cars they are not that far apart weight wise. I also had a 72 at the same time 7/31 in the tranny made a big difference, especially on the street. I would not give up the ability to run larger (more modern tires avalible) wheels and aluminum case engine to go with early car. I think if you looked at minimalizing your currently car, Maybe add fiber glass bumpers, hood and deck lid you could get quite a bit lighter.

john

^ This x100

I know you are getting hit with a lot of opinions in this thread but it all boils down to what YOU want and how YOU will use the car.

If you want a more tossable, fun car, no matter how lightweight you go, the wrong suspension and too wide of wheels will work against this goal. On the other hand, if you want to lean towards a more composed and capable street/track car, wider wheels and fully upgraded suspension will get you closer to that goal.

^ You can also decide you want to be somewhere in-between the two and find the right balance that fits your preference.

There are numerous littles spectrums like this when it comes to these cars and you just have to figure out where YOU fall within them and build the car accordingly.

You can accomplish whatever you want with proper know how, time, and budget. I personally think a lightweight later 911 with the desired aesthetics is the way to go. Values be damned. If you like the IB’s keep them. If you don’t, toss them.

I really don’t think the IB 911’s will ever achieve the values of pre-74’ cars (at least not within the next few decades) due to the high numbers produced and they are less prone to rust. There are just too many of them and the attrition rate is not very high.

On the other hand, a proper long hood conversion with tasteful mods always seems to fetch a premium in the various marketplaces and I don’t see that trend changing. So if you did end up doing the work and went to sell the car later, you would likely see most if not all your money back.

[Maxhouse97]

BTW my car currently sits at 2631 lbs.

[paul_howey]

Originally Posted by Maxhouse97

BTW my car currently sits at 2631 lbs.

You can probably get close to 2400lbs if you go lean on the interior (delete rear seats, RS door cards, delete audio, etc). SSI’s or headers with lightweight muffler (M&K mufflers are excellent). Backdate body with FB bumpers, delete heavy flag mirrors, delete rockers (weld up the holes and make custom torsion covers for G50 cars). I personally would get rid of the roll bar as well if this is mainly a street application as it adds weight. Much more likely to get rear ended by some texting teenager and end up with the bar to the back of the head then a roll over.

I personally would not recommend FG hood on a long hood conversion. They tend to warp after install due to the lack of support and it’s nearly impossible to get the gaps right. It’s one of the areas I sacrificed saving weight in order to have the front look correct.

I’m sure I’m forgetting a few things but those are some areas you can dump some significant weight quickly.

[Maxhouse97]

Ok great - I was also thinking of doing a sunroof delete while repainting the whole car.

[87maniac]

I drove '73.5, '74, '83SC, '87,

The 74 with 4x 185/70 tires on 6x15 felt -very close- to the '73.5.
It was light and very fun to drive. I believe the 74 is geared lower than later 911s.

I replaced the stock skinny wheels with 6x16/7x16 with low profile wide tire,
and that changed the feel of the car very much.
The nimble/light feelings were gone, replaced by heavier steering, more planted feel.

The difference between the 74 and the SC was a feeling of Too Much Weight.

the '87 is heavy like the SC, however, the torque of the 3.2 is wonderful.
The '87 has higher quality interior (than the '74), G50, and makes a nice touring car.

I imagine that a '74 lightweight would be a blast, careful choice of wheels/tires/
suspension will result in the early feel of a longhood.

[kach22i]

If you can have your cake and eat it to, the below special edition sounds like it.

Post #89
3.1 Liter SC-L
Another 1979 restoration, but this one is special...

Point One
This forgotten 911 SC variant packs a punch.
https://www.excellence-mag.com/issues/180/articles/point-one

Sprenger’s team took the stock 930/03 engine seen in RoW SCs (930/09 for MY1980) and bored it from 95.0 to 97.0 mm, the same as the 3.3 Turbo motor. This yielded 3122 cc with the stock 70.4-mm stroke. The compression ratio was increased from 8.6:1 to 9.5:1, which necessitated the use of premium grade fuel (98 RON). An upgraded fuel distributor was employed, while pistons and cylinders were sourced from Mahle. To handle any additional cooling needs, a larger oil cooler — likely left over from the racing program and similar to the eventual 3.2’s unit — was mounted in the right front fender. Finally, a taller fifth gear of 0.759:1 (rather than 0.785:1) pushed top speed higher.

I think any year with a weight reduction regimen under it's belt is going to be above par.

However, only few will approach Lotus light.

[WCN621]

Maxhouse97, I can greatly appreciate where you’re coming from. With the desire for the responsiveness, handling and wanting those early 911 aesthetics. I am seriously considering a backdate on my 84’ as well. I’ve driven a number of 911’s, 68’ thru my 84’ but wanted the dependability, power and no rust of the 3.2. However, if I have had larger car budget, I would jump on a 914-6 (keeping the 911). I drove a street-legal 914-6 race car that my buddy has. Nothing has compared to that go-kart handling on steroids. It was fantastic. I never cared for the styling, but if you have the opportunity, drive a 914-6. If you like how it performs, you may overlook the styling and pine for one too. I think he’s going to be putting it on the market, so there will probably be one available.

[dwelle]

backdating will have very little effect on the handling and feel of the car.

losing weight will. one effects aesthetics, the other performance...

[famoroso]

Originally Posted by kach22i

If you can have your cake and eat it to, the below special edition sounds like it.

Post #89
3.1 Liter SC-L
Another 1979 restoration, but this one is special...

Point One
This forgotten 911 SC variant packs a punch.
https://www.excellence-mag.com/issues/180/articles/point-one


I think any year with a weight reduction regimen under it's belt is going to be above par.

However, only few will approach Lotus light.

I've got my '87 M491 down to 2,856 from 2,950 (which includes taking ~20 pounds of reciprocating / rotating mass out of the power train in conjunction with a 3.4 rebuild). I'm shooting for sub 2,800 lbs eventually. The combination of a bit more power and a bit less weight feels pretty great though. However, with 225 & 245 Trofeo Rs, it is not tossable (more like planted AF). I may downsize my front wheel & tire and try less sticky 205s & 245s to see how it changes the feel (which, in conjunction with running Fuchs Evolution wheels will drop ~9.5 pounds of unsprung / rotating weight).

I have an 1,800 pound / 300 hp Lotus Elise one garage stall over. It's a great reminder that my 911 will never approach that type of HP / weight though, so I'm realistic with my goals.

One thing is certain. Weight is the enemy / light makes right. My '87 enjoys a foglight delete, stereo / speaker delete, Recaro Pole Positions, footwell blower (and blower control switch) delete, heater backdate / blower delete, M&K Active Exhaust pre-muffler + 1 in/out rear muffler and a rear bumperette delete + rear Euro crush tubes.

I'm kicking around an Antigravity Group 48 battery. It's a considerable (if costly for a battery) weight savings, but feels like a suboptimal location from a weight distribution perspective. I'd LOVE a sunroof delete, but absent some catastrophic need for a repaint, that ain't happening. I totally would have done the electric AC system to both drop a considerable amount of weight and shift a lot of the remaining weight forward, but my stock system blows 34 degree vent temps and I couldn't, in good conscience, rip that system out.

[AFB24911S]

Just another thought to add here: Porsche didn’t galvanize any of the long hood cars.

[jac1976]

Originally Posted by AFB24911S

Just another thought to add here: Porsche didn’t galvanize any of the long hood cars.

Actually, galvanized steel was used on the floors and arches/inner panels starting in 1970 and increasingly was used through 1972-73 with the introduction of Thyssen steel.

[mrrolleyes]

This is my 76 narrow body 3.2 swapped non sunroof car. All steel w/ me in it, about 175. 3/4 tank of gas also.
No spare, small battery. No back seats but full carpet and leather, recaro PP seats. It’s pretty light w/ room to lose more if push came to shove.

[Charles Freeborn]

My '74. Dead stock, good tires, stiffer bars euro height. When the MFI 2.7 goes in this winter it'll be even more fun. I think the '74 is the best value out there. The 2.7 will need some mods and it's already at it's hp limit without spending $20k plus, but for overall value they can't be beat. Be sure to remove AC if it has it.

[Maxhouse97]

Great responses, thanks for this. Here’s some more detail on my car from my valuing thread relative to weight savings I’ve already incorporated:

132,804 miles

- Steel synchros in trans rebuild by Brian Copan BMC & G at 119k miles, New clutch, KEP Lightweight aluminum pressure plate, new G50 clutch cross shaft kit
- Full 996 brake conversion with new front hubs to accommodate OE 996 front rotors, upgraded 23mm master cylinder
- Full Suspension rebuild: All new ER bushings, all new wheel bearing, new ball joints, bump steer kit, RSR 19mm lowered spindles, Tarett adjustable sway bar, Elephant racing custom valves shocks, drop links, turbo tie rods, full corner balance and aggressive street alignment
- Upgraded torsion bars 22/29 mm, hollow in rear
- Carrera front valence
- Bob Stratton duck tail
- Safety Devices roll cage
- J West Rennshift shifter and G50 coupler rubber bushing
- Steve Wong custom 93 octane chip
- Additional outlet stock exhaust
- Fabspeed cat delete (have stock cat)
- Removed a/c
- Heater backdate (have stock parts)
- K&N air filter and drilled air box
- Momo deep dish steering wheel
- TRE 917 style shift knob
- Recaro PP seats, custom leather and Alcantara covering, rennline seat belt anchors and sub strap
- Rennline triangular strut tower brace
- Rennline battery RE-location kit plus lightweight battery
- Aluminum foot rests
- H4 headlights with upgraded relays
- Fikse/Zuffenhaus forged wheels 17”
- Wevo engine mounts
- Magnecor plug wires
- Webcam 20/21 camshafts
- Recent refresh (piston rings, steel head studs, etc) at 131k. miles. Stuttgart Services, Louisville KY. New engine sound pad. Rebuilt valve guides at 88k.
- Euro bumperettes, lightweight Euro bumper shocks (minus bumper shock tow hook), Bosch euro taillights
- Custom interior refinish with carpet/sound insulation
- 996 aluminum spare tire

After this thread I’m really thinking of going down to 15” or 16” wheels with narrower tires. Right now I’m on 225/245 17s. Then you start looking at a backdate for both aesthetic and weight reasons.

[ted]

Originally Posted by Maxhouse97

The main thing I would be looking for is that true lightweight, go-kart type handling and fun-to-drive characteristic.

The best go kart feeling my 69 911 provided was with some 15 inch rims and short 23.5 inch tall cantilever slicks.
Taller tires and larger diameter wheels made it feel heavy like a passenger was in the car.
Get an extra set of cheap rims with some short tires and it will feel more like a go kart.
Go kart handling to me means you are on top of the tire and can pitch and catch the car easily.
That requires driver training and experience, without those skills removing weight is pointless.


My all stock 86 turbo look handles great and takes as much skill to maintain momentum.
Maintaining momentum is important with these heavy and underpowered low torque old cars.

[shawn908]

Originally Posted by Maxhouse97

After this thread I’m really thinking of going down to 15” or 16” wheels with narrower tires. Right now I’m on 225/245 17s.

Agree weight loss makes a difference - and wheel size. My 74 has been on a weight loss regimen, now @2322#s (sans driver, spare, ac etc) and 1/2 tank fuel. With cookie cutter 7x15s all around and 235 width R888s it seems go-kart like and is very enjoyable to drive on country roads with a stock 3.2. Tire pressure makes a noticeable difference to how it handles, but it takes corners flat and has predictable handling (sticks to road) The mods/suspension of your listed setup is similar to my car (some of what's on your list is on my to do list...) - except the wheels/tires. With 15s and balanced/aligned/camber setup etc - more "go-kart" handling could be close and directly assessed before mods to body. One idea: do a few autocross runs w/ 17s then between runs swap to 15s w/R888 tires (or other performance spec tire).

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Maxhouse97

Great responses, thanks for this. Here’s some more detail on my car from my valuing thread relative to weight savings I’ve already incorporated:

132,804 miles

- Steel synchros in trans rebuild by Brian Copan BMC & G at 119k miles, New clutch, KEP Lightweight aluminum pressure plate, new G50 clutch cross shaft kit
- Full 996 brake conversion with new front hubs to accommodate OE 996 front rotors, upgraded 23mm master cylinder
- Full Suspension rebuild: All new ER bushings, all new wheel bearing, new ball joints, bump steer kit, RSR 19mm lowered spindles, Tarett adjustable sway bar, Elephant racing custom valves shocks, drop links, turbo tie rods, full corner balance and aggressive street alignment
- Upgraded torsion bars 22/29 mm, hollow in rear
- Carrera front valence
- Bob Stratton duck tail
- Safety Devices roll cage
- J West Rennshift shifter and G50 coupler rubber bushing
- Steve Wong custom 93 octane chip
- Additional outlet stock exhaust
- Fabspeed cat delete (have stock cat)
- Removed a/c
- Heater backdate (have stock parts)
- K&N air filter and drilled air box
- Momo deep dish steering wheel
- TRE 917 style shift knob
- Recaro PP seats, custom leather and Alcantara covering, rennline seat belt anchors and sub strap
- Rennline triangular strut tower brace
- Rennline battery RE-location kit plus lightweight battery
- Aluminum foot rests
- H4 headlights with upgraded relays
- Fikse/Zuffenhaus forged wheels 17”
- Wevo engine mounts
- Magnecor plug wires
- Webcam 20/21 camshafts
- Recent refresh (piston rings, steel head studs, etc) at 131k. miles. Stuttgart Services, Louisville KY. New engine sound pad. Rebuilt valve guides at 88k.
- Euro bumperettes, lightweight Euro bumper shocks (minus bumper shock tow hook), Bosch euro taillights
- Custom interior refinish with carpet/sound insulation
- 996 aluminum spare tire

After this thread I’m really thinking of going down to 15” or 16” wheels with narrower tires. Right now I’m on 225/245 17s. Then you start looking at a backdate for both aesthetic and weight reasons.

Nice car!

Those wheels are some of the best you can buy, only change there is to maybe use 215/45 fronts. The torque cost w/ 215/45//245/40 x17 on those wheels is already lower than the torque cost on any 7 & 8 or 7 & 9 or 8 & 9 x16 Fuchs setup except 7 & 8 x16 Fuchs w/ 205/50 & 225/45 tires, In other word the car will go and stop quicker w/ what you have unless you go to 15s which may be problematic w/ your brakes, However you also give up lateral grip going to any 16 or 15 set up, except w/ custom 8 & 9.5 x15 wheels w/ 225/45 and 245/40 tires. Though tire line choice also influences this.

I have 8 & 9.5 x17 225/45 & 255/40 on my 3.6 C3 and though the liveliness of shorter tires is appreciated I'd find it very hard to give up the grip.

You need to trim mass from both ends, the front being more important than the back because of it's longer lever arm.

As a test remove the spare and drive that way for a while to at least partially see the effects