CV joint washers?

[ClickClickBoom]

Hey,
Just got my shipment of Nord-Lock NLX 8 and 10s. The only fly in the ointment is they shipped/sold me 2X the number I wanted. Is there interest in my surplus, if so I will offer them on the classified section @ $1.50 each plus flatrate envelope shipping, so for the average Joe the cost would be aprox $40.00. Sounds like a lot, try Grainger, go to the Nord-Lock website and rummage around.
Nord-Lock - Your trusted partner for bolt optimization
I became a believer after reading and studying up on the little critters. The upside to the Nord-Locks is they are reuseable whereas the Schnorrs are not. The Nords are currently state of the art for Nuke subs and other critical applications. If there are no takers I will sell them on eBay.
Thoughts?
eric

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom

Hey,
Just got my shipment of Nord-Lock NLX 8 and 10s. The only fly in the ointment is they shipped/sold me 2X the number I wanted. Is there interest in my surplus, if so I will offer them on the classified section @ $1.50 each plus flatrate envelope shipping, so for the average Joe the cost would be aprox $40.00. Sounds like a lot, try Grainger, go to the Nord-Lock website and rummage around.
Nord-Lock - Your trusted partner for bolt optimization
I became a believer after reading and studying up on the little critters. The upside to the Nord-Locks is they are reuseable whereas the Schnorrs are not. The Nords are currently state of the art for Nuke subs and other critical applications. If there are no takers I will sell them on eBay.
Thoughts?
eric

I'll jump. What's different about using them (do I need to use different torque, or some different technique when installing them?)

I can paypal you in the morning for a set. My engine is out, I just got new CV boots all around, and have nice shiny new bolts for them, so tossing some hi-tech washers in would just be gravy at this point.

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

I'll jump. What's different about using them (do I need to use different torque, or some different technique when installing them?)

I can paypal you in the morning for a set. My engine is out, I just got new CV boots all around, and have nice shiny new bolts for them, so tossing some hi-tech washers in would just be gravy at this point.

Mike,
These washers are like a combo washer, a combo of a Schnorr and original Nord-Lock washers. I would suggest going to the Nord-Lock link I provided to hear/view the differences and engineering. Needless to say you will need to determine the correct bolt length, since you have new CVs and i assume boots, you will need to determine the correct length bolts anyway.The differences between using torque plates or not, the boot cover thickness added to the new washer thickness will require the correct bolt length for your combo.
http://www.nord-lock.com/products/multifunctional-wedge-locking/nord-lock-x-series-washers/dimension-lists/
The Nord-Locks can be installed lubricated, in fact they suggest a couple of lube/anti-seize possibilities as well as dry assembly. The anti corrosion coating along with the design is truly a modern solution to bolt locking. Go to the web site and make your own assessment, if they make sense, PM me and I will send you my Paypal info.
http://www.nord-lock.com/products/multifunctional-wedge-locking/nord-lock-x-series-washers/related-articles-news/
I liked the idea of using the latest technology, the Schnorr's are a fine system, I personally believe the Nord-Locks provide a larger margin of locking security over the Schnorrs. Decide for your self.

[db_cooper]

Up the torque spec 10%. The Nord-Locks are about 2.5mm thick. The schnorr washers are about .7mm If your CV axle bolts are 47mm long (its been a while..I don't recall) use some 50mm long 12.9 type hex heads from McMaster-Carr to get a good clamp on the flange.

Just check and be sure the longer CV new bolts don't go to far through the flange.

You could use the stock length CV bolts..I like to go a little longer if possible.

[billybek]

Neat product.
I always wondered why more people didn't use these "ramp" washers. We used them in certain applications on overhauls but the X series appears to add a Belmont washer dish to maintain the original clamping force.

[ClickClickBoom]

When many suggest re-torquing after a few hundred miles, they are dealing with the settlement issue. In reality the majority occurs within aprox 3600 seconds after initial bolt tightening. Driving a few hundred miles is not only unnecessary, it actually exposes the CV joint to potential failure modes, due to the reduced clamping force due to slackening. It's interesting to see the common tribal solution to slacking, being solved with the retorquing strategy. The retorquing solution is effective only as long as the joint stays inside of the original design intent. Add horsepower, larger stickier tires and the original design may be exceeded momentarily. This is where the Schnorr/Nordlock solution applies the elegant solution to the problems. In watching the video it almost appears that these washer system were designed for the Porsche CV application, this is why I chose he Nord-Lock.
Given the volume of posts dealing with CV issues it became evident that the OEM process was a design/cost compromise, couple that with less than scrupulous attention to assembly detail in the field, yields the equilavent number of posts detailing issues.
Grady and others chronicled their experiences in the CV reconstructed thread in very specific detail.
It should be noted that I had many of the same problems listed, and after applying surgical cleanliness standards to the CV interface surfaces, and the use of the original NL washers I have had several thousand miles of trouble free miles. The NLX series will add an additional margin to a bolted joint that is approaching the design limits at the OEM level. As per the Nord-Lock engineer the torque of 30lb ft as applied to the 12.9 bolt is at the far end of the torque spectrum for an 8MM bolt. By deduction this implies that the CV interface is close to the maximum design possible, so giving up any margin will increase the possibility of failure.
Geeky I know.....

[Dr J]

I use them after I had my cv joint drop off on the street and can vouch for them. If you get longer bolts you can thread the flanges all the way through. Definitely worth using the Nord loc

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by db_cooper

Up the torque spec 10%. The Nord-Locks are about 2.5mm thick. The schnorr washers are about .7mm If your CV axle bolts are 47mm long (its been a while..I don't recall) use some 50mm long 12.9 type hex heads from McMaster-Carr to get a good clamp on the flange.

Just check and be sure the longer CV new bolts don't go to far through the flange.

You could use the stock length CV bolts..I like to go a little longer if possible.

Actually the bolt torque can actually be reduced since lube/anti seize can be used. The 8mm 12.9 bolts are close to the yield point at 30 lb ft, so I would not advise going above the factory number of 30 lb ft. And YES, determine the appropriate bolt length for your individual application. Given the nature of the aftermarket process measuring the actual bolt length is required to optimize the project. I got my bolts from Belmetric and got black phosphate coated instead zinc coating. Given I will be using torque distribution plates and the Nord-Locks I may go to 60MM bolt lengths. By all means do your own stack up and measure.
http://www.cncexpo.com/MetricBoltTorque.aspx
http://electronicfilters.tpub.com/TM-10-4330-237-13P/css/TM-10-4330-237-13P_105.htm
http://us.misumi-ec.com/pdf/tech/mech/p2849.pdf
http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e3_6b.htm

[LJ851]

I just used turbo output flanges and G50 axles on mine, 10mm bolts


These washers seem like the best current solution to the issues facing the highly stressed 8mm CV connection.

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by LJ851

I just used turbo output flanges and G50 axles on mine, 10mm bolts


These washers seem like the best current solution to the issues facing the highly stressed 8mm CV connection.

Nice solution! Always better to move to the center of the envelope! How much did this cost? I also have too many 10MM sets.

[KTL]

I tend to think a lot of the M8 failures are related to the bolt head bearing on the soft tin boot flange which doesn't allow the bolt to effectively clamp the joint. The load distributing washers ("LDW") should have been a spec'd item for the M8 CV joints.

The boots with the thick machined steel boot flange are much better at bearing the load from the bolt head. But I still think the LDW used with a good serrated lock washer like the Schnoor belleville style is good practice. We've used the 100mm/M8 CV on our MotoDelta race cars for a lot of years and neither car has ever dropped axles.

New Turbo/108mm output flanges are $500 each plus the axles are $300 each. Pretty pricey to make the swap but an effective solution to the problem. Used output flanges are a bit tough to come by. Axles not so much.

Also worth noting is the non-Turbo 108mm axles are not bolted on the outboard end, which eliminates twelve bolts! Never once have I found a loose bolt on my M10 setup in the '87 911 that i've had for 13 yrs. I've R&R'd the axles quite a bit over the years and checked them alot for pre-track drive inspection.

[Pazuzu]

Just take my money!



I have 55mm bolts and the heavier steel flange/boot combos, I'm all set as far as the bearing surface. I just didn't know if they had to be assembled a certain way, or if there was a different technique to installing them (ie. torque to 50%, then 110%, then back to 100% or something like that).

So, PM me a way to pay you and I'll get you an address to send a set off to

[LJ851]

Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom

Nice solution! Always better to move to the center of the envelope! How much did this cost? I also have too many 10MM sets.

I found a pair of output flanges used here for $250 and a set of used axles locally for $100. $40 in new boots and grease + 6 load distributing washers from BMW E28 chassis (free from a buddy)

I think i am at the low end of the pricing curve for these components.

[KTL]

Originally Posted by LJ851

I found a pair of output flanges used here for $250 and a set of used axles locally for $100.

I think i am at the low end of the pricing curve for these components.

Great score. Typically a pair of flanges sells for $250 each! Used axles are a roll of the dice. Good to hear you scored a good set just needing new grease.

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by LJ851

I found a pair of output flanges used here for $250 and a set of used axles locally for $100. $40 in new boots and grease + 6 load distributing washers from BMW E28 chassis (free from a buddy)

I think i am at the low end of the pricing curve for these components.

Nicely done! The fact that Porsche actually upsized to the 10mm bolts is proof that the 8mm application was at the upper end of the envelope. If the 8mm application is done with the surgical attention to clean surfaces, it will work. Add HP and bigger tires and the jury is out, the additional clamping force supplied by the 10mm bolts might be necessary to safely transmit the hp/torque. I am not an engineer, but did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!

[1-ev.com]

Sorry Guys, silly question:

Who makes new moon washers?

Thank you.
I've also posted this question here: Reconstructing Constant Velocity (CV) Joints

[KTL]

Pelican doesn't show them in their Porsche catalog, as the actual Porsche part number is listed as "NLA" No Longer Avaiable. That's actually wrong because the VW part that these washers used to be listed under in the Porsche catalog (Porsche number superseded VW part and is now NLA) is 87-5081-0 and is available from VW parts suppliers.

I got mine from a dune buggy parts place, similar to this one

TORQUE DISTRIBUTION WASHER [87-5081-0] - $1.75 : Vwbugworld, World Of Vintage Volkswagen

[1-ev.com]

txs Kevin :-)

[ClickClickBoom]

I have offered the surplus NLX washers I have in the classified section. I will have about 8 sets available in each size. Look for the NLX thread.

[tederth]

Just check and be sure the longer CV new bolts don't go to far through the flange.