What next.....track guys I need some input please

[rdane]

I have a car that I have been rebuilding over the winter. Track just opened and I have plenty of seat time coming up. Here is some of what has been done with the car this winter.

Car:
1979 SC

RSA OEM wing
RUF YB bumpers with front air dam

Engine and transmission:
Heat sheets
Magnecor wire set
Turbo value covers
Club sport mounts on the engine and transmission
SSIs and a dual outlet Danke stainless
Close ratio on a rebuilt 915 new gearing on 2 thru 5 w/ 130 top end.
Sachs Power Clutch
High Performance Flywheel
Factory short shift kit (suggestions on any of the gated systems for a 915. I have a Seinie yet to be installed)
Optima battery in original position
(front oil cooler coming)

Brakes:
Braided stainless steel brake lines
SCI 930 brake conversion from a ’86 with slotted, floating front calipers and drilled rears
Ferodo FDB 451 pads
AJ USA brake air kit

Suspension:
Elephant Racing triangulated cross bar
22 front with 30 rear, Sander's hollow T bars
solid bushings (nitrex or nylon) all around except rear sway bars
Bilstein sport shocks
new ball joints
Turbo Tie rods
Alignment, perfect corner balanced, lowered @ 25”

Wheels and tires:
Factory chrome Fuchs from a ‘86 993 7" and 9" wheels
205 and 245 SO3s

Interior:
Ricaro SRDs
AJ USA peddles and dead peddle

I am doing decent lap times with street tires in comparison to the Sovern guys on track tires. (The only ones I have to compare to at the moment)

But I had a ZO6 and a couple of M Series BMWs blow by me yesterday as well as a new Z! Depressing. Not the lack of power but how easily they were doing turns at speeds I was having to wrestle with. It looks like it was easier for them...and as fast as they were driving in comparison I am thinking better sleds has got to be a part of it. But a stock Z car? I was embarrassed! Not ashamed if it is just my lack of skill either.

Seat time is a priority and some coaching but what else could be done to stick the car? Brakes are awesome now, could use dbl the HP, because there are places I could go faster with it but that is going to wait till next winter. My ideas have been 17" wheels and wider S0-3s, an adjustable sway bar set up (which I wanted to avoid), harness, fire system and some sort of bar of course. A serious diet plan but I figure 2300 is going to be the limit for a street/track car.

What have I missed???......besides more seat time

The concerns I have on the track have been my skills at gear changes...and being a little flighty as over 100 on a down hill transition. Throttle steers at my demand, which is great fun but the rear tires start yallowing long before I would have thought they would.

Sound about right?

Thanks for the help!

[jeff parker]

Get some real tires. All the suspension upgrades and horsepower will not make as much difference as sticky tires. Still won't be able to hang with a Z06. The 350Z might be catchable.

[RazorRacer]

Have you checked that the throttle is getting 100% travel. I went to my first two DE's and the throttle bushings were missing. I was only gettting 70-80% power. My instructor would be saying "gas, gas, gas" and I would reply, my foots on the floor.

Once I replaced the bushings, I started really feeling the power. BTW, I was able to pass the 350Z in front of me at will after the twisties. He could out accelerate me on the straights, though.

If you can, test drive a few other SC's at the local car dealers to make sure your's is up to snuff. Sounds like you have a great car.

Also, get it professionally aligned. That makes a big difference, too.

[MarkP]

Sounds like you had a nice day on the track, wish I'd been there! When comparing your track times with SOVREN, remember we're limited to 2.0 motors.

I'm no expert, but I was shocked with the dramatic difference tires made last time I was out. My new wet weather performance tires are Yokohama AVS 100's, the first time I had them out they felt terrible - slow and mushy feeling through the turns.

Between practice sessions I switched back to my Yokohama A008r's and cut my times by 10.5 seconds - that's HUGE. The car felt like it was on rails on these tires.

A novice/newbie insight, but I was really shock at how different the car handled and how much faster it was.

[Tyson Schmidt]

The only way to "buy" yourself fast lap times is at a driving school. I know a number of guys that could hop right in your car just the way it is and spank the Z06. Cold hard fact of life.

Once you can honestly say that you can 4-wheel drift the car through the sweepers and have the (street) tires howling more often than they are not, then you have earned the right to buy some R-compound tires. At this point the Vette, M3, and Z will be rolling chicanes and you won't be able to peel the grin from your face for a week.

An aggressive performance alignment by a shop that knows racing and Porsches is also a must. But, the safety equipment should be higher on the list. Actually, they should have come before ALL of the above listed mods, but I won't preach since I was once just as guilty.

Good luck!

[Chuck Moreland]

R compound tires will make the biggest difference. Those adjustable sway bars would be a next logical step.

And you say "alignment" but what alignment? That can make a huge difference.

And the three most important things - seat time, seat time, seat time.

[rdane]

"Bruce Levan, former pro Prosche 962 driver, was leading the pack in his 64 Vette, turning 1:38's to my 1:54's!"

My best when the car was running cool was 1:48s on a couple of laps with our funky timing once the track was dry. Tires were making some good noise and a good drift going on turn 2 and 8.

Car has been professionally aligned for moderate track use and corner balanced.

More seat time coming

[lateapex911]

I guess it was during my second (SCCA) event when I was passed by the fast qualifier in the qualifying session. It was then that I discovered that there was another level. First, there's "under the limit", second there's "at the limit", and then there's "controlled over the limit". He was driving his car in such a way that it was chucking and feinting, and plain drifting for small sections. Not enough to scrub off speed, but enough to carry momentum to the next straight. It was the most revealing discovery of the season, and I worked to getting to that level by the end of the season. As I had learned in autocrossing, the equipment is only as good as the driver. I had a lot of miles to drive before I expected to break through to the next level.

Chucks right....like the three most important things in real estate, the three most important things in competition driving are miles, miles, and miles.

Next, the cheapest way to BUY time is a set of Hoosiers.

Finally, find a good set up shop, or do it yourself....get the car aligned and corner weighted. But your alignment will need to be the right alignment for the car and the tires.

If you can do the last one yourself, you'll be better off, because it means that you can change things between sessions at the track, and can drive the different settings back to back. Keep excellent notes of everything you do.

Finally, one thing I do is interview myself after every session. I write down a description of my performance and the cars performance. It serves to really make me think...to really pick apart every aspect of my driving, and to dissect the cars handling and responses. I also note the affects of any chassis or tire changes I may have made from the previous session. I think that having the record, and forcing myself to go through the whole session in my head is almost like driving it over. More bang for the buck!

[rdane]

"I know a number of guys that could hop right in your car just the way it is and spank the Z06. Cold hard fact of life."

Put the same skilled driver in my car and again in a Z06 and I have a hard time believing a 180hp 911 is going to come out on top at this track. Love to hear I am wrong. I would think two long straights (one going uphill) put the advantage to more torgue and hp.

There are three corners yet that are supposed to be taken "flat out" but I don't yet have the stones to take any of them at 110+ which the car will easily do on them. Working on the first but it is a bit hairball unless the set ups are perfect. No lack of torgue to get there, just a lack of skill to control it.

I appreciate the comments guys, thanks.

I thought the consensus was:
driver
tires
suspension
chassis
weight
HP

[MMARSH]

Originally posted by rdane
[B
I thought the consensus was:
driver
tires
suspension
chassis
weight
HP [/B]

With biggest emphasis on Driver.

[andyu911]

Like others said, get someone knows racing Porsches to set your alignment. Also, get yourself a pyrometer. Keep record of each tire temp (outter, center and inner) after every run. How about tire pressure? Get a shoe polish to mark your tires' shoulders, it tells you how much of tire contact the ground in corners. Take these data to your alignment shop to see if your car is properly set up.
BTW, you have nice set up on your car. Does it have LSD?
Again, it's the DRIVER!

Enjoy!

Andy
'87 Carrera
'73 914 2.0

[Wil Ferch]

All good points, ....BUT....

There is a generation separating a Z06, 350Z, and such from a 79 911. Real hard fact.

Spank a Z06? Hmm... hardly....very capable car/chassis/brakes/motor. No glaring weaknesses. Easily the performance equal of a 996TT. 405 hp. Let's not have unbridled enthusiasm for our cars go overboard.

350Z....more capable than I'd care to admit. Oh well, Porsche will be doing SUV's very well soon instead...

---Wil Ferch

[jluetjen]

It's not really a question of "stones", it's a question of know how. All that "stones" will do is put you in over your head and off the track. The bigger the stones, the further off the track you'll travel.

How consistant are your lap times? Only once you are consistant will you be able to start "building" a fast lap, 1 section of a turn at a time.

I agree with the other posts. Since it sounds like your desire is to "Spank the other guys", your talking racing, not just DE'ing. The cheapest and fastest way to pick up speed is through a professional racing school; Skip Barber, Bonderant, Spenard, Daly, etc. You'll show up the first day sure that you'll be the fastest person there -- and then spin the car. You'll be hustling your FF as fast as it will go and be passed by the instructor -- who's driving a van with half the class in it. You'll watch the instructor take your car out (still warm from you pushing it to it's limits), and watch them take 2 or 3 seconds off of your times and not even use the brakes in some of the corners that you were! But at the end of the class you'll be noticable faster and safer then you were when you arrived.

Then its seat time, in anything and everything that you can find. Karts are about the cheapest way that I know to explore the limits safely and cheaply. They'll teach you about momentum, throttle control, 4 wheel drifts, and how to brake. If you can consistantly spank the field (starting at the front or back of the pack) in karts, then you are most likely "fairly quick".

Once you've done all that, you'll look back and be amazed at how much time you were leaving on the track. How you weren't maximizing corner entry speeds (Watch M. Schumacher at turn 1 at Montreal! ), how you weren't maximizing your mid-corner speeds (Ayrton Senna on a qualifying lap), and how you were using the brakes too much (W. M. Fangio). You'll watch yourself gobble up 100 yards at a time on other drivers in faster cars going into corners.

It's not how fast the car is, it's how fast the driver can master the car... (Ok - enough zen! ) That's my $0.02.

[Don Wohlfarth]

Not trying to rain on your parade but a stock SC has more potential than we as drivers can handle when we start running track events. The driver is the limiting factor.
Part of the problem is that you have a car that is fairly well set up for the track meaning it is not as forgiving as a stock car. Your car is just responding to driver inputs.
When we start doing track events and change pads, then sways, then this or that, we are starting the learning curve all over again.
Starting with a set up car that responds to every little driver input, whether steering, gas, or brakes, just makes acquiring these driving skills that much more difficult.
Quit beating up on yourself. Give yourself time to acquire these skills. Comparing times to drivers that may have 50,100,150, track days is not a fair comparison.
FWIW my suggestion is do not buy track tires, do not make any changes, and put your stop watch in the bottom of your tool box. Spend whatever available money on seat time. At this point improving the driver is the cheapest dollars you will ever spend on making your car faster.

[rdane]

Thanks again gentlemen. This is the start of my second season of track time. I have some DE and a short school behind me. Plus a few lapping days now. More of all to come.

Just wanted to make sure I haven't missed anything on my car. It does have a L/S ZF set at 80%

I do keep track of tires, pressure and contact patch.

From other endevors I know the importance of keeping data to a document your improvements or lack of. That was the simple reason for a few timed laps. Consistant times? Yes to a point, with in 30 seconds easily. Didn't get any more detailed but I realise you are looking for 1/10ths of a second. But there where two different groups of times......one really driving hard and doing most everything right and the other at a good comfort level 6 seconds slower that was "easy" to maintain and be consistant at. Of course there were "throw" away laps when I missed a shift and wasn't concentrating but they are becoming the exception instead of the norm.

I am surprised that there isn't a common consensus to do timed lapping. In the "speed" sports I have been involved in (not motor sports BTW) a clock is universally accepted as THE most valuable training tools available with or without outside coaching.

FWIW I haven't been off track or spun the car during lapping. Trying to save those uncontrolled adventures for DE days at slower speeds and on wet tracks if possible. Heck of a lot easier on me and the car.

I spent a lot of time in carts this winter which has helped, no question. One of the reasons imo is because the carts are timed every lap so a different line or technique shows up quickly as good or bad. Thoughts?

Next investment will be a good coach. Thanks for the help!

[dickster]

have you done a lap with an experienced driver at the wheel of your car while your passenger?

if not, thats my suggestion. you'll then know how fast your car CAN go.

then i would forget about stop watches. forget about speed - tape up your speedo.

then do loads of track time. try and follow the lines of guys lapping consistently quicker than you (not the fastest guy on the track!). when you can keep up move to another guy. you'll learn the lines and braking points etc.

a guy i know has now done so many track days on bikes for fun, and has become so quick from the experience, he has guys offering bikes for testing at circuits.

jmho

[Don Wohlfarth]

Agree that a stop watch is THE tool that stops the BS.
It will not help you find 10-15 seconds where a normal lap time is 1:35. It won't help with missed shifts or struggling thru the turns either.
"FWIW I haven't been off track or spun the car during lapping. Trying to save those uncontrolled adventures for DE days at slower speeds and on wet tracks if possible. Heck of a lot easier on me and the car."
I'm slightly confused here. Sounds like you are running open sessions with out an instructor on lapping days. Then you mention slower speeds at de's, just guessing but that must be with an instructor? Is that pesky instructor slowing you down?

Instructors are sitting in the right seat to help you improve your driving skills. As your skills increase you'll see your lap times dropping and you don't have to do anything to your car.

[rdane]

"I'm slightly confused here. Sounds like you are running open sessions with out an instructor on lapping days. Then you mention slower speeds at de's"

The DE/skills programs have been at a different area than most of the track days. Haven't had an instructor for the majority of the track days of late through my choice. I am painfully aware of some of my driving related problems and have been trying to work on them. Didn't make a lot of sense to have someone yelling in my ear when I blew a shift.....I already knew I blew a shift and pretty much why.

The track I have been driving at has a number of printed learning aids for their track and is where I took a driving school. So learning to drive the line I was shown and watching others drive a similar line has helped a lot.

I wanted to get some of the real rookie mistakes corrected which takes time and interject a professional when I could at least do the things right I know about the majority of the time.

No one slowing me down but me

Guess I need a passenger again.

[Don Wohlfarth]

Hot damn, now we're getting somewhere!
When drivers start learning the skills necessary to drive the track it's information overload. To add to the confusion it takes intense concentration. Driving at speed is a new experience but at least all the cars are going in the same direction.
Your instructor is trying to help you gain the skills to drive the track...safely. As you perfect your skills the instructor will sign you off to solo with drivers of similar ability to get seat time. As you gather more skills you will be promoted to a higher run group. This doesn't have anything to do with how fast you are but on the drivers ability to control his car at speed, courtesy, track awareness, the repeatability factor, etc.
Agree that instructor should not be yelling in your ear about a missed shift (that's what the long straights are for ). Instead you both should be concentrating on this next turn coming up as you're entering it too fast. You can talk about the missed shift back in the pits.
But the biggest reason to get back with an instructor instead of trying to learn it on your own is that as your skills increase and you become faster you will try to rush things such as drifting from the outside of the track to middle for a difficult turn, perhaps throwing the car into a turn instead of driving it into the turn, maybe overslowing the car, little things that you are not aware of as a driver.
In short, you will be reinforcing bad habits.

[MarkP]

Just got in after a long day and got caught up on this thread.

Very helpful for me too, thanks everyone!