Finally drove MFI

[Jonny042]

MFI rocks, plain and simple. If it's at all an option, do it.

Originally Posted by WP0ZZZ

(Other than the nostalgia and period-correctness, of course, I don't want to minimise the importance of subjective feelings when talking about classic cars.)

For a traditional Sports Purpose 911, I can't recommend MFI enough. For one thing it's completely fascinating, and how well this old tech works to make power, especially on a 3.0 or bigger motor, eclipses the tuning advantage that a more modern EFI/ITB system may have.

Been there, got the sticker!



I've been farting around getting the 3.2SS on MFI working as well as possible and it can certainly be very, very good. It does take a bit of fiddling, but in 2021 the knowledge is out there, and the technology exists, with wideband O2 sensors, to color outside the CMA lines and tailor the system to just about any 911 motor. I'm not the first one to map out a space cam, but this is the "T" cam I am using to run the 3.2 in "Project Heavy Metal" which uses a custom machined big bore MFI induction system.



(EDIT) - all that said, I've started purchasing components for an EFI/ITB system for my AutoX car. Everything has a place....

[356RS]

Originally Posted by Jonny042

I've been farting around getting the 3.2SS on MFI working as well as possible and it can certainly be very, very good. It does take a bit of fiddling, but in 2021 the knowledge is out there, and the technology exists, with wideband O2 sensors, to color outside the CMA lines and tailor the system to just about any 911 motor. I'm not the first one to map out a space cam, but this is the "T" cam I am using to run the 3.2 in "Project Heavy Metal" which uses a custom machined big bore MFI induction system.



(EDIT) - all that said, I've started purchasing components for an EFI/ITB system for my AutoX car. Everything has a place....

You're on the right track Jonny.

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by 356RS

You're on the right track Jonny.

Thanks to You, and Jeff Higgins, and countless others here on the forum!!!

[Jeff Higgins]

We have covered this ground oh so many times. Those with little or no first hand experience with a properly tuned MFI system will always say "modern EFI/ITB is better". And you know what? They are absolutely right. It is far, far better. More consistent fueling across the range of RPM, throttle position, and load. Better power across the range due to that. Better milage due to that. Cleaner running and less stinky due to that. Much, much better in every regard.

Except for "feel". A "feel" provided by that instantaneous throttle response. There is nothing else on the market that can match it. Modern EFI/ITB does come very, very close. But it is not there yet, and that difference can be felt. This difference is a lot of fun for some of us, some could not care less and won't want to put up with all of the downsides of MFI to get it. I understand that, especially considering just how close we can get these days, with none of the compromises. But, for some of us, those compromises are indeed worth it in the face of the "feel" MFI provides. You simply cannot get it with EFI/ITB setups, even as good as they are.

[Tremelune]

This strikes me as a religious position from those with a vested interest in MFI being irreplaceable...

[winders]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

This strikes me as a religious position from those with a vested interest in MFI being irreplaceable...

That is pretty much it.

I have driven a well tuned 1973 911S and the throttle response was not any better than my race car's MoTec EFI setup with AT Power ITBs.

I get that people want the MFI on cars that came with it or if they just want MFI on their 911 to be period correct or get that period feel from the best injection system available at that time. I would feel the same way if I had a 911 from the MFI period.

[r lane]

I do think sentimentality plays a big part in our choosing MFI, but the fact is, it works wonderfully. 917 normal and turbo, 935, 936. I have a good friend who has raced for many years with both MFI and carbs. He presently campaigns very successfully a 3.0 RS with carbs and is after me to ditch the MFI, as he feels the PMOS/Webers are less maintenance. I have driven for years as a daily driver a 72 2.7 with MFI and the joy I receive from its performance and sound never fades. I track a 3.0 with MFI and I don't know what carbs could give me that the MFI doesn't but I think nothing, as the throttle response and pull with no flat spots is phenomenal. An image speaks to each of us differently, but if you had never seen one, this could cause one to pause. I prefer MFI for more reasons than performance.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

This strikes me as a religious position from those with a vested interest in MFI being irreplaceable...

Absolutely!! Now you are starting to understand.

Originally Posted by winders

That is pretty much it.

I have driven a well tuned 1973 911S and the throttle response was not any better than my race car's MoTec EFI setup with AT Power ITBs.

Nonsense. I've driven an example (or several) of just about every induction system ever offered by Porsche, and most of the modern aftermarket EFI/ITB setups as well. It's subtle, but it's there. I think a lot of guys that spent a fortune on the modern EFI/ITB systems are simply in denial, or simply do not have sufficient seat time with MFI. Of course, the same could be said for the MFI faithful as well.

Originally Posted by winders

I get that people want the MFI on cars that came with it or if they just want MFI on their 911 to be period correct or get that period feel from the best injection system available at that time. I would feel the same way if I had a 911 from the MFI period.

I've always wondered why so many guys who are ostensibly seeking some kind of a "vintage sports car experience" spend so much money, time, and effort to modernize them. Not just induction systems, but but modern brakes (Boxster caliper kits), modern suspension (coil overs, pick up point relocation, etc.), massive power increases (3.6's in early cars, etc.), modern A/C, and on and on. More power to 'em, just not for me. We all enjoy this hobby in our own way. That's what is important. Of course this "bench racing" is a large part of it as well. Fun stuff...

[David 23]

Originally Posted by r lane

I do think sentimentality plays a big part in our choosing MFI, but the fact is, it works wonderfully. 917 normal and turbo, 935, 936. I have a good friend who has raced for many years with both MFI and carbs. He presently campaigns very successfully a 3.0 RS with carbs and is after me to ditch the MFI, as he feels the PMOS/Webers are less maintenance. I have driven for years as a daily driver a 72 2.7 with MFI and the joy I receive from its performance and sound never fades. I track a 3.0 with MFI and I don't know what carbs could give me that the MFI doesn't but I think nothing, as the throttle response and pull with no flat spots is phenomenal. An image speaks to each of us differently, but if you had never seen one, this could cause one to pause. I prefer MFI for more reasons than performance.

I'm curious about the slide throttle you have pictured. Are you driving this engine on a race car only, or street, or.....? I'd love to hear an assessment of the slide throttle performance for a non-race application.

[winders]

Slides aren't even great for race cars. Butterfly setups, especially like the AT Power ITBs with shaftless butterflies, are better for street and race cars. The only advantage the slide has if ITB size is limited as it will flow more air wide open at any given diameter. The shaftless butterfly design At Power has pretty much eliminates that advantage. The barrel ITB is better than both but has issues of its own including cost and packaging.

https://www.highpowermedia.com/Archive/barrel-butterfly-or-slide

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by winders

Slides aren't even great for race cars. Butterfly setups, especially like the AT Power ITBs with shaftless butterflies, are better for street and race cars. The only advantage the slide has if ITB size is limited as it will flow more air wide open at any given diameter. The shaftless butterfly design At Power has pretty much eliminates that advantage. The barrel ITB is better than both but has issues of its own including cost and packaging.

https://www.highpowermedia.com/Archive/barrel-butterfly-or-slide

Yeah, slide valves are pretty much just an "on/off switch". Especially the original RSR and the like. I borrowed and played with an original set some 15 years ago, before they apparently got gold plated or something (at least their value started to reflect that sentiment). Really unsuitable for a street car, and I tried, believe me I tried.

Interestingly, a walk through the paddock at the last Rennsport revealed a fair number of cars that should have had slide valves, that had them originally, that now had plain old butterfly throttle bodies. Not even high butterflies, which incidentally create their own problems as well.

I've heard good things about Gamroth's new slide valves, like they don't stick and get gummed up like the old ones did. I have to believe, however, that they add more in "cool factor" than performance. And, yes, they are pretty darn cool...

[r lane]

Originally Posted by David 23

I'm curious about the slide throttle you have pictured. Are you driving this engine on a race car only, or street, or.....? I'd love to hear an assessment of the slide throttle performance for a non-race application.

They are on a track engine. I have never tried these on a street car but a couple of responders just stated that they don't recommend it based on their experience. It would seem that a half moon knife edge hanging half way out of one side of the stack would create lopsided turbulence, but during on and off throttle and partial throttle, I do not feel flat spots and acceleration feels rapid and smooth. Obviously at full throttle, it is a straight clean unobstructed chimney. I have been at this for 2-3 years so don't have much experience to support what I think. Flow bench info would be interesting. I have a set of 2.2 stacks that I taper bored out to accommodate another 3.0 track motor. 47-42mm I recall. These two engines really feel similar.

[winders]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I've heard good things about Gamroth's new slide valves, like they don't stick and get gummed up like the old ones did. I have to believe, however, that they add more in "cool factor" than performance. And, yes, they are pretty darn cool...

Even great slides are pointless on a modern build. You are better off with great butterfly ITBs. “Cool” to me is getting around the track faster.

If you need slides for authenticity you probably wouldn’t be able to use “modern” slides anyway. I just don’t get the draw for slides on builds not constrained by authenticity rules. They cost more and don’t work as well as butterflies…

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by winders

Even great slides are pointless on a modern build. You are better off with great butterfly ITBs. “Cool” to me is getting around the track faster.

If you need slides for authenticity you probably wouldn’t be able to use “modern” slides anyway. I just don’t get the draw for slides on builds not constrained by authenticity rules. They cost more and don’t work as well as butterflies…

Agreed. Jeff is very much an enthusiastic "mad scientist", though, and I believe does a lot of stuff just because it's so darn cool. His slide valve setup, with its modern common fuel rail and servo fired injectors, will certainly never meet anyone's authenticity requirements. And, knowing Jeff, he wouldn't do it if it didn't make good power. That doesn't mean it would be street drivable, though. Is anyone here actually running this setup? It would be nice to hear some feedback. Beautiful stuff:

[ckissick]

My 1970 911E had a 3.0 with Webers. It was 250HP and the car weighed 1900 lb. I've never driven MFI, but the throttle response with the Webers was pretty amazing. It occurs to me I'm referring to the car in the past tense. It still exists, I just sold it, is all. It's now somewhere in France.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

This thread makes me sad. Makes me miss my 69E, the only car I've ever regretted selling, the MFI being a big part of that and it looks like I'll never build a 4.0L MFI motor using one of the Catorce cases since no one seems to be getting a case.

Carry on.

[cmcfaul]

MFI is a supercharger for fuel injection.

Chris
73 911 E

[andoni510]

T, E and S MFI engines are awesome but a 2.7 RS Spec MFI is a beast.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by ckissick

My 1970 911E had a 3.0 with Webers. It was 250HP and the car weighed 1900 lb. I've never driven MFI, but the throttle response with the Webers was pretty amazing. It occurs to me I'm referring to the car in the past tense. It still exists, I just sold it, is all. It's now somewhere in France.

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

This thread makes me sad. Makes me miss my 69E, the only car I've ever regretted selling, the MFI being a big part of that and it looks like I'll never build a 4.0L MFI motor using one of the Catorce cases since no one seems to be getting a case.

Carry on.

Yeah, imagine being lucky enough to somewhat, kinda sorta, combine all of that. Things just kind of fell into place for me. Guys were giving me take-off MFI systems when neither they, nor their mechanics, could figure out how to make them work. I have several fully functional systems, of various specifications (T, E, and S of different displacements) sitting on shelves in my garage. Free. All of it. It only made sense to try to make it work on whatever hot rod I was going to build. Which, in the end, turned out to be a 3.0 liter, 11:1 compression, custom cammed (to my specifications, via a custom grind from John Dougherty), twin plugged beast. 2,200 pounds with its 100 liter tank full:

[WP0ZZZ]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

A "feel" provided by that instantaneous throttle response. There is nothing else on the market that can match it. Modern EFI/ITB does come very, very close. But it is not there yet, and that difference can be felt.

What causes the extra latency that makes the throttle response of an EFI/ITB engine to be worse than that of an MFI engine?