Ok, now I need professional help - yours!

[mhackney]

2 weeks ago, the clutch cable on my 1970 911S broke - or so I thought. The pedal went all the way to the floor and stayed there. I took the carpet and panel off the driver side floor and lifted the car. When I looked underneath, the cable was not broke! There seemed to be a lot of slack in it though. I backed off the 2 nuts on the clutch arm and noticed that perhaps the PO had not completely seated the cable end at the firewall or perhaps the standoff at the rear by the engine. In fact, the cable still had a paper Porsche Part label on it so it couldn't be too old (I've had the car 2 years with maybe 8k of driving).

So, I pulled out the trusty manuals (Haynes) and adjusted the cable according to the instructions - 1" of forward play at the pedal. All seemed well so it was on to the test proceedure of putting it in reverse and letting out the clutch. However, when I attempt to start the car, it does not turn over - I hear the fuel pump kick on and the horns and all electrical componants work. I hooked the battery up to the charger and it is fully charged. Yet, no start.

Also, I noticed that the clutch feels very strange when I push the pedal - pretty hard to push and it doesn't "bottom out" like it did before - i.e. it doesn't go all the way to the floor.

Apparently there is a starter relay switch that got inadvertantly disconnected or something - any ideas. And what about the feel of the clutch now?

Help greatly appreciated!

cheers,
Michael

[mhackney]

Oh, I do hear the starter solenoid kick in too. Also, I do have 101 Projects and was following #11 to test the adjustment.

[oldE]

Michael,
When you attempted to start the car: was it still in gear?
As a wild guess, I would hazard there is something which has come loose and dropped into the friction area of the clutch, or part of the linkage let go inside. Check the position of the lever to which the cable attaches on the transmission. Does it seem to be at the right angle? Can you move it by hand? Does it seem connected to its internal linkage?
I'm sure some of the guys who have been into the internals of their clutches will rise to the challenge.
Les

[mhackney]

I was attempting to start in neutral.

The lever seems right but I don't have anything to compare to. It is hard to push by hand but when I adjusted the cable nut, it seemed to have a good range of motion. I don't know how to tell if it is connected to its internal linkage.

thanks for the input.

Michael

[Grady Clay]

Michael,
First let’s do some more diagnostics.

Do we have one problem or two?

The first order of business is to get the engine to start and run.
Put the transmission in neutral and verify that the engine turns over with a wrench on the nut on the crank pulley. If not, STOP. If so, continue.

What was done that could have affected the starter? Could the starter have been getting ground via the clutch cable? Have you checked the ground strap? Is the battery properly connected? How are the connections at the starter motor? Is the ignition switch getting “start” to the starter?
In this step you should get the starter to operate properly.

Once you have it starting and running, then you can address the clutch issues.

The ’70-’71 clutch set-up is a Rube Goldberg at best. There are some good threads on this Forum. Search on my name. Start there.

Best,
Grady


Oooo, a ’62 Roadster! Cool.

[mhackney]

Grady, ok! I went out and backed off the adjustment nut/s on the clutch arm. Had my daughter work the pedal so I could see the arm move (seemed like a good range of motion maybe 1/2 in or so). I then tried to start and it started right up! However, there was an obvious grinding from the tranny.

So I think the adjustment was overtightening the clutch before. Why that would affect starting???

[mhackney]

So, maybe the clutch adjustment instructions of '1" of pedal free play' does not apply to my car! It had way more than that before.

So can I read the instructions in project 11 now that since it is grinding (although in neutral) that I need to tighten the cable?

The Roadster is indeed a thing of beauty! And this week in Boston it has been in the 70s with no humidity and no clouds. I am in heaven - except for my 911 problem!

Cheers,
Michael

[Grady Clay]

Michael,

A common feature of ’70-’71 is the clutch release arm can rub on the outer circumference of the pressure plate. Lots of noise.

If the clutch suddenly fails to operate and the cable and link is OK, a common cause is the pivot for the arm has broken. The clutch release arm should have almost no radial (in & out) play but be relatively free in rotation around the transmission axis and fore and aft free play.

You can take a light and look up in the clutch area.

Go and search Pelican. I have posted diagrams, parts lists, Factory Workshop photos, and more.

Your description of “grinding from the tranny” can be in the clutch area or (ugh) inside the transmission. Which is it?

Best,
Grady

[mhackney]

thanks again. I think it sounded like the transmission was partially in gear.

I will go out now and look with a light. I do not recall any in & out play at all, the arm moved forward and backward but I'll double check that now.

[mhackney]

Ok, I really think it is something in the clutch. I looked at the clutch release arm and it moves forward and backward and a little radially but I could not pull it in and out at all.

I tightened the clutch cable 1.5 turns and tried to restart - I get the same symptom as I initially reported, the starter soenoid kicks in but the car won't turn over. I then backed off 3 turns (so the 1.5 I just added plus 1.5 more) and now it starts and there is no grinding noise but the clutch pedal is very near the floor and does not disenagage the clutch when pressed.

It seems that when I have the cable tight, the clutch is enganged and perhaps the starter does not have the umph to start a car in gear!

any other ideas?

cheers,
Michael

[Zeke]

"......perhaps the starter does not have the umph to start a car in gear!"

No.

And I'm not usurping Grady. Just trying to help. Stop trying to start the car until you find out what is wrong. What you are doing is adjusting until the arm is not hung up on the PP as Grady says. And there is a reason that this is happening, but I can't tell you exactly unless he already did when he suggested the pivot post broke off.

It's time to pull the motor and get in there and find the problem, be it the arm or whatever. There is no such thing as a tranny ".......grinding (although in neutral)." Also, "I think it sounded like the transmission was partially in gear" is not really feasable. If it was, it would simply pop out of gear.

[mhackney]

Ok, thanks Zeke.

So it sounds like I've done as much diagnostics as possible from under the car then? Unfortunatey my personal time is at an all time low right now and I want to get this car on the road asap as winter will be approaching quickly here in MA.

I've dropped 356 engines (and various Brit cars over 20 years ago). Any idea how much time for an average wrench to drop it? I have a 4 post hydraulic lift so moving the car in to the air is easy!

I am definitley a do-it-yourselfer but in the interests of time I might need to take this to a shop (if I can find one in the Boston area.)

Regards,
Michael

[Zeke]

2 hours max with a lift like that. You may find a partial drop is all you need. You would need means to support the engine from under the car or a chain fall from above. You can separate the motor and trans while still in the car. This saves removing axles and shift linkage, amoung other things. You may then still choose to pull the motor all the way. But most or us would just pull the engine/tranny as a unit.

That having been said, it always seems like it takes more time to reinstall the motor. I don't know what your time frame actually is, but I believe a shop would flag that job as the major part of a day, no other problems withstanding.

It would take me 3 days, but I'm old and I don't have a lift.

[mhackney]

Part of the problem is I am away for vacation next tuesday until the 6th. Then school starts for the kids so evenings are tiring with sports, homework, etc!

I've been reading all of the threads here that I can and having never done tranny work before, I don't really know what I would be looking for.

[mhackney]

another detail I forgot to mention that maybe will help the diagnosis. When this originally happened I was approaching a sop light during rush hour in the left lane. I pushed the clutch and heard a pop and the pedal went to the floor and stayed there. I was in 2nd and the light turned green. I was planning to go straight but that way is very busy with lights every 1/4 mile (Route 2 west for you locals). So I tunred a left and plotted a course through the back country that minimized stops. I was able to shift through 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th without using the clutch. Luckily I did not have to come to a complete stop in 15 miles! Anyway, other than having no clutch, there was no tranny noise or anything unusual.

Does this help isolate clutch from tranny?

BYW, I know driving w/o a clutch is bad but my wife just had knee surgery and I needed to get home to pick her up.

[mhackney]

So close but yet so far!

With the support of ChrisBennet - who graciouly volunteered to help me drop the engine - we spent Sunday evening on my 911. The lift does indeed make working under the car easier. However - a note for all - the spacing between the tracks on the lift are too narrow for the engine/muffler to fit through. How do I know? Let's just call it "accumulated wisdom".

The good news is, the engine will be ready to drop quickly when I get back from my vacation this week. The bad news is I have to live with the mystery of what is wrong with my Pcar for another week,

cheers,
Michael

PS Thanks again Chris, your help and knowledge is greatly appreciated.

[ChrisBennet]

That's "accumulated remorse" Michael, accumulated remorse.

Michael is too kind, our engine drop was a train wreck. Like Michael said to me "It's like those guys who build a boat in their basement and with no way to get it out."

On the plus side, I was very well fed.
-Chris

[jeff1hughes]

I know what the problem is... It happened on my 71! It's the clutch pin, the part that pushes on the fork. The clutch cable on the 70 and 71 is weird, the casing itself actually creates the motion to move the fork. The oe style plastic pin brakes and causes the exact symptom you described in your last post. They offer an aluminum pin to replace--no problem ever again! I think this is the part number here: PEL-423-212-99. Also, double check your clevis at the pedal, I've broke both of these items and they act the same way. Good luck! I've replaced all sorts of parts when it comes to that 901, and I think I like the shift action better on that than on the 915.

[Zeke]

I'll bet with Chris there, that was one thing they checked before deciding to go ahead with the drop.

[mhackney]

Thanks again for the input. I/we did check everything that can be checked from the pedal back to everything you can see outside the transmission casing (and peeking through the "slot"). I know the curiosity is driving me crazy though! I'm on a plane in 4 hrs so it'll just hafta wait.

And Chris, the crash course in removing and remounting the engine will make for a good "grandkid story" when I'm old(er) and (more) senile. "Younguns, let me tell you about the time we tried to drop a 2.2l Porsche engine using a lift, a lift dang blang it!"

cheers,
Michael