Time to replace this pulley?
 

Beautiful day today in the Chicagoland area so hopped in the Targa and drove to work. I noticed an odd metallic rattling noise coming form the engine bay as I was driving. When I got to work I let the engine cool down and then started to poke around. I thought at first something on the exhaust might be loose but no dice. Then, as I was looking around I spotted this <photo attached>, two big metal shavings under the alternator pulley nut. There's a LOT of play in the pulley and when running the belt looks like a wet spaghetti noodle flopping around. <Hopefully the links to the videos work.>

Before I order up a new pulley, is there anything else should I replace while I'm in there? And are there any tricks, or things I should be aware of, before diving into this?

Thanks in advance, y'all have been super helpful as I navigate my way through air-cooled Porsche ownership.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/e5rmnZk9UWUrGkpb6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/2MvMcGi7FVEsq2u66

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660084200.jpg

May just be a couple of the 6 spacers that worked loose.

Looks like you may need to replace your shims as well

You're going to need all six shims since the ones between the pulley halves have been spinning as the outer half rotated independently from the inner; so presume those are worn.

I would also replace the outer pulley, as you noted, as well as a new nut (why did it loosen???) and the conical washer. I would just presume all those parts have been compromised by being loose and spinning around.

At least you can keep the belt.

Thanks so much for the input everyone. Loading up my cart right now with the following items:
Shim Washer for Alternator Belt Pulley (0.5 mm) x 6
Alternator Pulley Nut
Marchal Alternator Pulley Cover
Alternator Pulley (Single 82 mm)

Am I missing anything?

Silver lining. 🤣

Shims, pulley 1/2, and fan or fan hub. The holes don’t line up, so the flats on the pulley1/2 and probably the fan hub are damaged.

The outer pulley has some serious ganarfs on it, prolly from someone trying to grab it with large water pump pliers or pipe wrench. Recommend you add the proper nut removal tool to your part list if you don't have one already. If you have the factory tool kit you may find one there or I'm sure our host still carries them.

Grab a few extra shims. They’re cheap and I’ve destroyed one before.

It looks like your nut/shims and pulley ere not torqued down enough that the shims were spinning until they disintegrated. Also the outer shell is out of round and looks pretty beat up.

The below pic is what you need to replace. Just remember that there are two alternator shaft sizes depending on the model year. My 80SC had the smaller alternator shaft and when I replaced it with the CR 175 amp alternator I had to ream out the round domed washer to allow for the larger alternator shaft.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660136284.jpg

Pulley setup with the CR 175 amp alternator.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660136666.jpg

I have a 1980 Targa as well. Thanks for the photos, so far those are all the things I have in my cart. Plan is to take everything off and inspect everything before I place my order, just in case there's something hiding in there that also needs replaced.

Just to clarify parts on left are for the original alternator and the three parts on the right came with the larger shaft CR 175 amp alternator.

Quick update. Managed to get the pulley off, it actually took two of us using pry bars to get the nut loose. Someone used ALL the uggaduggas when they put that sucker on.

The pulley looks different than the ones I've been seeing though, it has two tabs on the inside that the others don't have.

There's also a tiny bit of front to back play in the fan with everything removed, is that normal? Best to just replace the fan too, just in case?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660246890.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660246890.jpg

And yes, there were only one and a half shims all told.

That outer pulley is toast.

There should be a total of 6 shims, as you know.

The fan-side (hub) pulley boss (the squared off sides) has been mangled and at a minimum needs to be repaired - you can see where the formerly square sides of the outer pulley have worn into the center of the hub.

I recommend taking the fan off the shaft and make sure the woodruf key is still there. You may need a new one. When fitted there should be little movement, not necessarily none, but not much either. If there is a lot of movement you may need a new fan hub.

I'm not sure why someone attempted staking the rivets; maybe they thought the hub was loose, not noticing the machining going on at the pulley.

If you have to replace the fan hub, I suggest looking up some of the folks that restore these expensive fans. You could also send the fan shroud and get them nicely refreshed and preserved.

If you haven't already discovered, the fan is probably corroded onto the alt shaft. Instead of prying, pounding, hammering, jimmy-jacking, the wheel, try this:

Soak the wheel/shaft interface with any oil penetrant. Thread two of the 16 holes, 180 degrees from each other with whatever thread pitch/tap fits the hole. Then screw a bolt into each hole making sure the bolt goes thru the wheel and bottoms on the alt housing. Then alternate tightening each bolt 1/4 turn at a time until the wheel pops off the shaft.

Viola! No broken unobtanium fan blades or fan shroud.

Position of outer pulley to the shaft appears off-center. Looks shifted up towards 10 o'clock. Might want to compare this position to the position of the new outer pulley. Also, if fan is removed with difficulty, if you clean the alternator shaft and respective bore in the fan and then put a very light coating of antiseize on the shaft, the fan will always come off easily.
.

Slight thread hijack… my car came with a CR 175A alternator but only has the domed washer and the nut - no flat washer and no lock washer. Should I be worried?

I don’t think you need to be worried. I took what came with the CR 175 amp alternator and added to the reamed out dome washer. If it bothers you just add the flat and lock washer.

All parts have been ordered. Now I wait. Hopefully everything gets here in time and I can get all the new parts installed before checked it out. Fingers crossed.

While I wait for the parts to arrive I figured I'd get a jump on things and remove the old fan. Problem is the AC belt is in the way. The AC doesn't work and I'm wondering if I can just cut the belt and not worry about it. Or would it be better to just loosen everything up and properly remove the belt?

If option #2 is the way to go, how do I get the belt off? I've found a few videos and write-ups but none of the compressors in them look like the one in my car.

Thanks again.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660698645.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660698645.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660698645.jpg

I believe your compressor is a York. If my memory serves me right the blue and green arrows point to bolts that need to be either loosened or removed. The green arrow bolt is down behind the compressor and the blue arrow bolt is under the front of the compressor. The red arrow nut needs to be loosened to move the compressor to the left and remove tension on the belt after the blue and green bolts are loosened.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660701662.jpg

Ok, everything is out, that was way more involved than I thought it was going to be. 🤣 definitely not looking forward to trying to put it all back in.

Now the question is, do I bother putting the AC compressor back in or just leave it out? Is that even an option?

You will need to decide do you plan to try and refurbish the existing AC system with the existing R-12 Freon or convert to a R134a system.

Replace with a new belt driven R134a system or an electric R134a system.

Remove all of the factory AC system and have no AC.

If there is no Freon in the system you could remove the compressor and associated hoses and the large condenser on the engine lid.

I vote leave off the AC belt and sort out the alternator.
Bolt the AC compressor down so you don't have to disconnect the AC lines and spill out whatever refrigerant is in the system.
Go to CIO and pick the brains of everyone who'll talk to you. There will be no shortage of folks willing to share their experiences and expertise. It's next weekend. You lose nothing by disconnecting the AC compressor for a week. (Especially if the AC already doesn't work)
And take your car. People (We) will be willing to point out exactly what things are and how they work.

Hope to see you next weekend!

Thanks, that was actually what I was hoping to hear. I couldn't find a clear answer anywhere regarding leaving the AC belt off.

Car is registered for CIO and I'm pushing to have it back up and running this weekend since the last of the new parts arrived earlier today. :) I'll def. be that newb asking all the questions and trying to get help as I navigate the aircooled Porsche world. I've got to say, folks have been super nice and very helpful so far. Reminds me a lot of the older folks in the watercooled VW scene.

If you see this hooptie next Saturday please be sure to say hi.

Kieran

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660939925.jpg

I just received my 87 Red Targa a week ago. Found out about CIO and they are letting me bring it down (far north burbs). Look forward to see it and hopefully meeting some folks from here. Reading a lot here, appreciating all the can be gleaned from everyone. Thanks all


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I've been out of watercooled VWs for ~9 years. Still have a fair number of friends from that world.
I have the flat grey SC with a Spades Customz decklid grille. It's pretty hard to miss.
Hell, I'm pretty hard to miss. :D

Not to go in another direction but glad I started reading this forum and a couple key threads. Learned of CIO. I just got my 87 Targa a week ago. CIO graciously allowed me to register it for next weekend. Hope to meet some fellow Chicagoland folks and learn all I can about my new purchase. Have picked up a lot of good info here already.


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I've been taking a break from the vw scene for a little while, but I'm pushing myself to focus on my watercooled vws again. Have a few hanging out in the garage that I've been neglecting for too long, it's time to show them some love again.

My MK2 and MK3. I've owned the MK3 since 1999 and the MK2 since 2006.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660945437.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660945437.jpg

So I completely spaced on checking the woodruff key as was recommended by @917_Langheck. Mine is kinda beat up so I figure best to just replace it. The problem is, the ones in our hosts site don't look like mine. Mine is flat on the ends whereas the ones listed here are semi-circular. Are these interchangeable?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660950369.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660950369.jpg

If you can't figure out the "right" Woodruf, maybe just buy both? Not expensive. For that matter, the old one ought to work. But it is odd looking.
You have ordered stuff, but the conical or bell shaped washer looks fine, as does the nut - again not expensive. It was the outer pulley half and the shims (all but one MIA?) which needed replacement.

Mentioned by someone earlier, but which you may not have picked up on, is the fan, and in particular the hub. The fan outer is kept in place by the fact that the fan's ID is a sort of sawed off circle, which the hub on the fan matches. That way the fan is keyed to the outer pulley, or vice versa.

What most likely happened here is that someone left out one - more likely several - of the shim washers - the ones you move to the inside or the outside of the outer pulley to set the fan belt tension. If you adjust that only with the inner shims, and leave off the outer shims, the cup washer won't be tight enough. Why? Because the threads on the end of the alternator shaft are only so long from its end to where the threading ends. Not having the proper total thickness of shims means that the nut will reach the inner end of the threading before it puts proper pressure on the cup washer, and the outer pulley half will be loose, or at least not as tightly pressed against things that it can't move. So the pulley starts to move, first a bit, then more. As it does this, the pulley's keyed ID starts to machine a slot into the corresponding flat parts of the fan. Eventually, that slot becomes a machined circle, and the outer will just spin.

You really need the locking action this key system gives, because you can't put extra torque on the cup washer - if there aren't enough shims, you will just distort the cup washer.

There have been lots of posts here showing this slotting action of the fan part in this area, and questions about how to fix that. Epoxy won't do it. From what I can tell, careful welding and then some filing or other careful machine work can repair it. You can search for things like fan pulley loose or whatnot, and find discussions and advice.

It looks like the slot extends all the way across the flat. Unless you are super lucky, and the number of shims on the alternator side to get the proper tension are many enough or few enough to move where the pulley finds itself on the snout - inside or outside of the slot which developed, you need to address this defect in the pulley, one way or (a new one?) the other.

In short, what you have ordered may not fix the problem.

I bought a new fan along with a new pulley and shims (there were only 2 on the car when I removed everything, 1 in front of the pulley and 1 behind), conical washer, and nut. The conical washer and nut were the wrong inner diameter so I'm reusing the original parts. I spent some time sanding the woodruff key to remove the burrs and smooth everything out. Once I sanded down the woodruff key and ran some sandpaper through the channel in the fan everything slid together perfectly.

Man, you said Kieran and I wondered if that was you. Now I know.
GD. I remember the days of LBR. Good times.

I just picked up a B8.5 Q5 with the supercharged 3.0. I have three big projects left on my 911 and then I'm going to turn my attention to the Q. Old habits die hard, don't they?

Liking the VWs. Cousins.

Chris, that's awesome. It's great hearing from folks that attended the LBR events and still remember them fondly. It was a lot of fun putting them on.

So, the hits just keep on coming.

This is the nut and domed washer that I purchased. The inner diameters are too small so the washer won't slide over the shaft and the nut won't thread on.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/90160342803.htm?pn=901-603-428-03-OEM
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/90160390501.htm?pn=901-603-905-01-M100

I'm guessing the ones on the car were 24mm and the ones I bought are 22mm. Not a big deal, I'll just use the original nut and dome washer right? Well that was the plan until I dropped the nut down into the bay and now it's wedged under the pulleys and it's in there TIGHT. Tried fishing it out with a coat hanger and no dice. How does that even happen? Sigh.

Off to the auto parts and hardware stores in the area now to see if I can find a replacement.

Magnet on a stick to retrieve the nut/washer.
19mm wrench/socket to rotate engine and free the jammed nut/washer.
We expect a video of this bad boy running by 1700EDT today.
#youcandoit