1973 Targa - I need an engine - ideas

[Sparky73]

I wanted to get some advice on an engine and transmission. I have a 1973 Porsche 911 Targa that I am doing a full restoration on. I am not planning to bring the car back to stock. I want to make tasteful upgrades to the car.

Current status, the car is broken down to chassis and is at the snadblaster getting cleaned and rust removed. Once I get it back I will get onto body work.

I am keeping the original steering, suspension and brakes. All is getting broken down, cleaned, new bushing, etc and rebuilt.

Then is comes to the engine. What do I put in this car. I have gone through so many ideas, 70's engine, period correct, Electric, 993 engine and some other crazy idea's that I won't mention.

I am leaning towards a 993 engine, the last of the air cooled. I am not afraid of a total engine rebuild.

Let me know your thoughts or ideas

[kevbo]

LS crate and renegade conversion kit

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Sparky73

I wanted to get some advice on an engine and transmission. I have a 1973 Porsche 911 Targa that I am doing a full restoration on. I am not planning to bring the car back to stock. I want to make tasteful upgrades to the car.

Current status, the car is broken down to chassis and is at the snadblaster getting cleaned and rust removed. Once I get it back I will get onto body work.

I am keeping the original steering, suspension and brakes. All is getting broken down, cleaned, new bushing, etc and rebuilt.

Then is comes to the engine. What do I put in this car. I have gone through so many ideas, 70's engine, period correct, Electric, 993 engine and some other crazy idea's that I won't mention.

I am leaning towards a 993 engine, the last of the air cooled. I am not afraid of a total engine rebuild.

Let me know your thoughts or ideas

I your other post you said you want a nice driver. Not a track car. "This will be a daily driver, no track days for now but I want it to perform well."

If it was me, it has everything to do with your budget.

Easiest: Replace your 914-6 motor (should be a 2.0) with a 2.7 that has had the case issues addressed. Should drop right in. Since you are getting a transmission as well, modifications to the car are minimal. A 1976 2.7 and earlier transmission will have the more fun 7:31 R&P. You will get a nice bump in power.

Next: A 3.0 SC motor. Still mostly a drop in replacement. You can keep it a CIS (nice for street) or go to carbs and the hassle associated with them.

A little more power? A 3.2 Motronic. You will need to do some modifications to the transmission. You may need suspension upgrades as well. Again, carbs are an option but as noted above, fuel injection is a pleasure for everyday driving.

I would not suggest a 3.6 as the modifications are even more extensive and is unlikely to enhance your street driving experience.

Other options (electrification, LS Swap etc), IMHO, are tickets to degrading what makes a 911 special.

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

If I had a non numbers matching car I’d go 3.2 all day. Right mix of usability and performance. Especially in a lighter early car.

[coldstart]

2.7, 3.0 or 3.2 rebuilt motors are all great options. It really depends on your usage. Unless you are tracking the car, the bigger engines are not practical. You will have to heavily upgrade suspension, tires, brakes, cooling, etc.

While sacrilegious on this forum, I have seen an electrified early 911 and really liked it. I don’t know if I would want to own one (range, lack of special 911 noise, cost, charging, etc) but it is pretty cool if that’s your thing.

[BK911]

High compression 2.4E engine.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Sparky73

I wanted to get some advice on an engine and transmission. I have a 1973 Porsche 911 Targa that I am doing a full restoration on. I am not planning to bring the car back to stock. I want to make tasteful upgrades to the car.

Current status, the car is broken down to chassis and is at the snadblaster getting cleaned and rust removed. Once I get it back I will get onto body work.

I am keeping the original steering, suspension and brakes. All is getting broken down, cleaned, new bushing, etc and rebuilt.

Then is comes to the engine. What do I put in this car. I have gone through so many ideas, 70's engine, period correct, Electric, 993 engine and some other crazy idea's that I won't mention.

I am leaning towards a 993 engine, the last of the air cooled. I am not afraid of a total engine rebuild.

Let me know your thoughts or ideas

unless you are adding SC/Carrera flares and some wide wheels and tires, forget putting a 993 engine in there. Yes, they are a ball but you want the right trans, suspension and brakes to truly enjoy the experience

w/ the early 915s thru '74 you have mechanical speedo and 7:31 R/P, for '75 still mech speedo but now 8:31 R/P, from '76 electric speedo and 8:31.

assuming you have th eoe trans it's a 915/02, 7:31 R/P mechanical speedo and gearted for atop speed of ~148 w/ 185/70 x15 tires

you can bolt a mg block 2.4-2.7 or an aluminum block 3.0 or 3.2

I'd go for a nice 3.0 SC engine w/ cis or aftermarket EFI, it will pair well w/ the trans and chassis and narrowish wheels( assuming 6 or 7 x15 205/55 or /60 tires)

3.2 gives a little more torque which isn't really necessary w/ the gearin and light chassis also adds to the complexity of the install due to additional Motronic electrical complexity, Though these are going to be the most fiddle free when properly installed.

[Phoenix]

Scott at Automobile Associates in Canton, CT built with me an incredible 2.9. Perfect for everyday driving with lots of torque on the low end. Build description is here.
https://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/1036681-2-4-build-3.html#post11521212

[Sparky73]

thanks for all the opinions. Seeing that I am in middle of figuring out my suspension rebuild, I guess I need to decide on the engine before I finalize suspension and brakes.

That being said from what I am reading. I am leaning towards a 3.0 or 3.2 for something with a little more power. I am not tracking but I do want a car that has some power.

With a 3.0 or 3.2 do I need to upgrade my suspension ?

Is there a marketplace to find used Porsche motors ?

[Matt Monson]

These guys regularly have engines for sale and are probably close enough for pick up.

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/1141505-1985-carrera-3-2-engine.html

[mepstein]

Thanks Matt. I don’t have any “take out” 3.0 or 3.2 engines at the moment but we always get more. My Peter Dawe trained tech is building this performance oriented 3.2. Mahle p&c’s with euro compression, pauter rods and better rod bolts and bearings, Elgin 964 sport cam, canyon head studs, etc, etc. lots of small things learned from a master builder that makes it more than just assembled parts. Fan is just a placeholder, it will get refinished. Probably $36k without exhaust. No matter what the size, there’s no way to build a good engine cheap. I do have another 3.2 core if someone wants a different build. One more thought/sales pitch - I have a 3.0 euro Carrera engine waiting to be built. It’s what I call a factory Porsche hot rod engine so waiting on the right buyer.

[mepstein]

3.2

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Sparky73

thanks for all the opinions. Seeing that I am in middle of figuring out my suspension rebuild, I guess I need to decide on the engine before I finalize suspension and brakes.

That being said from what I am reading. I am leaning towards a 3.0 or 3.2 for something with a little more power. I am not tracking but I do want a car that has some power.

With a 3.0 or 3.2 do I need to upgrade my suspension ?

Is there a marketplace to find used Porsche motors ?

For track use you want HP, for street use you want torque.

Why? Because on a track you are mostly using the upper reaches of the rev range, this is where hp is developed best.

For street use you are mostly using the lower end of the rev range where torque is most efficiently developed

This was brought home to me back in the '70s when I had a '72 2.4L S then bought a Carrera 3.0 both are rated at around the same hp 190hp@6500 for the S 200hp@ 6000 for the C3. The S was a ball to drive on a track but tiring to drive around town, The C3 was still ok on track but far more enjoyable in town Because the S had 159lb-ft @ 5200 and the C3 188lb-ft @ 4200, The C3 currently has a 993 motor in it 283hp@6750 & 2330lb-ft @ 5500, even more enjoyable for both, but the suspension and brakes match the powerplant.

A stock healthy 3.0 cis motor will come in at ~190hp@6250 & ~176lb-ft @5500, S/M brakes will certainly be fine for street use in that light chassis, whether or not you need more suspension depends on how you drive and the grip levels from the wheels/tires.

The more you push a 911 the more it rolls in corners, w/ 185/70 all around the tires will run out of grip before the roll gets too bad, w/ wider stickier rubber and higher speeds the roll gets increasingly extreme. So it depends, but as a mentioned in the other thread you don't want to go beyond 20 or 21/26, depending on shocks and sways and local road conditions, or the ride deteriorats rapidly.

[PeteKz]

You didn't mention the most important number: How much are you willing to spend? Then double it.

[Sparky73]

Thanks everyone for your input. I think the last comment is the one I need to focus on.

How much am I willing to spend ?

The rebuilt motors are more than I want to spend. Part of the journey of doing this restoration, I really want to rebuild the engine. I know it's a lot of work but that's what I am in for.

I am hoping to find an engine that is ready for a rebuild and the spend my time rebuilding.

If anyone has leads for an engine that's ready for a rebuild, let me know.... thanks

[mepstein]

Pelican has a good engine building program that adds up all the parts and costs. You still need to add in labor to rebuild heads and rods, polish crank, machine a mag case, refurbish rockers, etc. but it’s good for a ballpark price. Add in another $1,500 for engine stand and tools

[E Sully]

In 2008 I purchased an '86 engine, transmission, with complete wiring harness. I did a complete top end rebuild. It was not to much work to install it in my '73.5. I did install an SC trombone oil cooler, and it handled the temps very well.
Such a pleasure to drive. Much easier to deal with than CIS. Since then I did decide to go back to the original due to the numbers matching value, but I loved driving the car with the 3.2.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Sparky73

Thanks everyone for your input. I think the last comment is the one I need to focus on.

How much am I willing to spend ?

The rebuilt motors are more than I want to spend. Part of the journey of doing this restoration, I really want to rebuild the engine. I know it's a lot of work but that's what I am in for.

I am hoping to find an engine that is ready for a rebuild and the spend my time rebuilding.

If anyone has leads for an engine that's ready for a rebuild, let me know.... thanks

Do you realize what part of the price a rebuilt engine is for the labor portion? Give or take 10%. Also these aren't motors for a novice re P-cars. You could have built 10 other motors and you are a novice when it comes to the 911.

[ennisk1]

Early 911? 3.0 liter all day long. Leave it CIS. 19/24 for torsion bars. Replace all your suspension bushings. Bilstein Sports. Stock front and rear bars (stock size is fine). Update the front struts and mount SC calibers or aluminum S calibers for some eye candy. 15x7 Fuchs will work in the rear with a narrow body. Tire choices are a bit limited. Thats it. 3.6 is WAY to much for an early chassis.

[RSTarga]

Originally Posted by ennisk1

Early 911? 3.0 liter all day long. Leave it CIS. 19/24 for torsion bars. Replace all your suspension bushings. Bilstein Sports. Stock front and rear bars (stock size is fine). Update the front struts and mount SC calibers or aluminum S calibers for some eye candy. 15x7 Fuchs will work in the rear with a narrow body. Tire choices are a bit limited. Thats it. 3.6 is WAY to much for an early chassis.

This is the best recommendation for a great street car. I would just add that elephant rubber bushings everywhere.I think the rear torsion bars are actually 24.5, perfect for a 3.0.
These cars are way lighter than more modern 911's