question about 3.2 engines.

[bickyd]

Is it possible to take a 88 3.2 engine and put 3.4 low compression pistons and nikasil barrels in it to make a low boost thing. 8 to 1 , maybe 964 cams , maybe mellissa cams, idk.. My shop is almost built and i have a fairly decent 88 911 I want to play with in 10 months or so after my last big money job. I am considering many things but not sure. its at 175 k with a top end done. new sodium valves , seals, turbo tie rods. and lots of other stuff. I know, 3.6 transplant. not interested. i want the work because I have the time soon. i am well read here , have the tools and stuff. Its time to contribute. I want a medium power car with legs to do touring for long miles. My budget is around 50 g Canadian. I know my g50-01 needs some love. she is growly angry bit that will be this winter. I am on it. i have listened to you . stated my budget and ambitions. give me your opinions. i am open to everything.

[mepstein]

Ok, I might be missing something here but in my mind, you would be building an engine that’s not very fun around town but not really needed for long highway miles. Your car should drive all day long at 80-90mph so why spend big bucks to turbo it just to drive highway speeds.

[wjdunham]

Originally Posted by mepstein

Ok, I might be missing something here but in my mind, you would be building an engine that’s not very fun around town but not really needed for long highway miles. Your car should drive all day long at 80-90mph so why spend big bucks to turbo it just to drive highway speeds.

Especially when there are a lot of things you can do with a NA configuration.
3.4L P&C (twin plug if you want extra credit), 964 cams, headers, bored throttle body, and an SW chip will get an engine that is plenty fun to drive, easy to get set up and will run for ever.

[darrin]

Love my n/a 3.4 -- don't rule out a 3.6 either - at this point whatever one you'll likely find will already be "well loved" and need/benefit from a full teardown/rebuild/etc.

[Rodsrsr]

If you're going low boost why not keep the stock compression? I run stock compression, with 20/21 grind web cams, headers, with .5 bar boost, and its more than enough power. basically zero lag so it still drives like a normal 3.2 off boost.

If you lower to 8:1 compression you'll need to up the boost which is fine but now its a totally different feel. From what you describe your looking for I think the 3.6 actually sounds like a better fit.

[bickyd]

Originally Posted by mepstein

Ok, I might be missing something here but in my mind, you would be building an engine that’s not very fun around town but not really needed for long highway miles. Your car should drive all day long at 80-90mph so why spend big bucks to turbo it just to drive highway speeds.

i hear you but where i live there is no "around town". i live in rural BC in a small town with two traffic lights. it is all highway .its not all about highway cruising. i just want a taste of thrilling boost power.

[bickyd]

Originally Posted by Rodsrsr

If you're going low boost why not keep the stock compression? I run stock compression, with 20/21 grind web cams, headers, with .5 bar boost, and its more than enough power. basically zero lag so it still drives like a normal 3.2 off boost.

If you lower to 8:1 compression you'll need to up the boost which is fine but now its a totally different feel. From what you describe your looking for I think the 3.6 actually sounds like a better fit.

I have alusil cylinders , albeit a decent 180 psi, if i am going to transform my engine i dont want it to be on old cylinders. I know i can sleeve them to nikasil, i just dont want to. i will admit i am not too savy with high compression low boost. it does sound tempting. can you share the end horsepower gain?

[bickyd]

Originally Posted by wjdunham

Especially when there are a lot of things you can do with a NA configuration.
3.4L P&C (twin plug if you want extra credit), 964 cams, headers, bored throttle body, and an SW chip will get an engine that is plenty fun to drive, easy to get set up and will run for ever.

sober comment. the conservative guy in me really hears you and you make perfect sense. problem is.... i seen a video of Bill Verbergs , i think it was, car in mexico under full acceleration and i cant get that out of my mind. it was a bad drug.

[mepstein]

Originally Posted by bickyd

sober comment. the conservative guy in me really hears you and you make perfect sense. problem is.... i seen a video of Bill Verbergs , i think it was, car in mexico under full acceleration and i cant get that out of my mind. it was a bad drug.

Well now that makes sense to me. You want to feel the - push you back in the seat - boost of a turbo. Check out the builds on the turbo forum section. I’m sure there are many tried and true formulas for getting there. Also the guys like promotive, who sell ready to install kits. I would follow a recipe, rather than winging it, so you end up with an engine that makes it more than five miles from home. Good luck with the build.

[3literpwr]

I have a 3.4 (10.3:1) with 20/21 cams and few other bits. It's a good thing overall, but I prefer my 3.0, 10.7:1 GE60 / PMO 46mm way way more. Before I did the rebuild on my 3.4, I was planning to do a turbo build also, but went the route I did. Given the chance, I wouldn’t go the NA route again with my that car.

[bickyd]

I will definitely check out the promotive kits and thanks for the inputs. I am contemplating starting the build in about ten months but the planning stage is now. still finishing my small shop.

[Rodsrsr]

Originally Posted by bickyd

I have alusil cylinders , albeit a decent 180 psi, if i am going to transform my engine i dont want it to be on old cylinders. I know i can sleeve them to nikasil, i just dont want to. i will admit i am not too savy with high compression low boost. it does sound tempting. can you share the end horsepower gain?

A 3.2 with cams, headers, good muffler, and .5 bar with a decent tune should get you in the 400 hp range, but its not so much the hp, rather the torque from the turbo that makes it so fun do drive. Torque is seat in the pants acceleration. hp is just bragging rights.

[spuggy]

8:1 static C/R doesn't require "low boost", IMO. Factory 3.3 930s came with 0.8 bar and 7:1. With CIS...

I ran 8:1 on mine (with SC cams) for years. Dynamic C/R (all the motor cares about) is altered by cams/timing. The more overlap ("hotter" the cam), the lower the dynamic/effective C/R.

With cams, EFI for good fuel/spark control and good combustion (twin-plugged, COP), 8:1 with 1.2 bar doesn't seem to be "pushing it" to me. I've seen 20 PSI spikes on WOT when fiddling with PID boost control - and detected zero knock.

I agree with Rod 100%; I think the big win of forced aspiration is the relatively massive low-range torque (typically 80% of peak torque around 3000 RPM), flat torque curve and the wide, linear, power band - almost any "decent" (eg designed in the last 30 years) turbo will do that for you. A "modern" turbo could probably do better still (spool faster, flow better etc).

SC cams, although they run out of puff quicker at the top (max by 5500-6000 RPM with torque falling off quickly over 5200 or so), start making power 1000 RPM lower than 964 cams. Almost any half-decent turbo will make positive manifold pressure earlier than the cams really start breathing (my venerable K27/HF made 6 PSI @ 2400 RPM). So they complement each other well.

If shove-in-the-back throttle response from anything over idle interests you, that's one way that works well. Useful more places than just the drag strip - because you don't need to be in the exact correct gear, in a narrow powerband.

Ditch the barn-door AFM in favor of EFI with a MAP/RPM table improves throttle response. 3.4 Nickies come with J&E pistons - lighter than factory. Pauter rods and lightweight clutch equals less rotational mass. It all adds up...

Turbos are great for cruising, but they like taller ratios. You'll really want at least a G50/50 5th for freeway/touring. Perhaps even a total regear (N/A 1st is especially useless with a turbo, and 2nd would be improved by being taller as well, perhaps the G50-02 3rd/4th ratios for close ratio - oh, wait, this looks like an RS box now)...

There's a laundry list of other things you'll want to address fairly urgently if you double the power output of that 3.2. Stiffen the suspension so the tires don't hit the flares when the rear squats under power. 65/35 LSD (and perhaps a billet side-cover while in there). Upgrade the brakes.

You could build the motor with a plan and just increase boost later - it'd hardly be a slug to drive - and this is trivial to do - changing the wastegate spring is easy enough, but even quicker via the ECU... A 4-port solenoid is good to control lower spring pressures/prevent premature cracking of the valve.

[mepstein]

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1114118-299hp-300ftlbs-my-2-7-turbo-setup-wheels.html

[bickyd]

Originally Posted by spuggy

8:1 static C/R doesn't require "low boost", IMO. Factory 3.3 930s came with 0.8 bar and 7:1. With CIS...

I ran 8:1 on mine (with SC cams) for years. Dynamic C/R (all the motor cares about) is altered by cams/timing. The more overlap ("hotter" the cam), the lower the dynamic/effective C/R.

With cams, EFI for good fuel/spark control and good combustion (twin-plugged, COP), 8:1 with 1.2 bar doesn't seem to be "pushing it" to me. I've seen 20 PSI spikes on WOT when fiddling with PID boost control - and detected zero knock.

I agree with Rod 100%; I think the big win of forced aspiration is the relatively massive low-range torque (typically 80% of peak torque around 3000 RPM), flat torque curve and the wide, linear, power band - almost any "decent" (eg designed in the last 30 years) turbo will do that for you. A "modern" turbo could probably do better still (spool faster, flow better etc).

SC cams, although they run out of puff quicker at the top (max by 5500-6000 RPM with torque falling off quickly over 5200 or so), start making power 1000 RPM lower than 964 cams. Almost any half-decent turbo will make positive manifold pressure earlier than the cams really start breathing (my venerable K27/HF made 6 PSI @ 2400 RPM). So they complement each other well.

If shove-in-the-back throttle response from anything over idle interests you, that's one way that works well. Useful more places than just the drag strip - because you don't need to be in the exact correct gear, in a narrow powerband.

Ditch the barn-door AFM in favor of EFI with a MAP/RPM table improves throttle response. 3.4 Nickies come with J&E pistons - lighter than factory. Pauter rods and lightweight clutch equals less rotational mass. It all adds up...

Turbos are great for cruising, but they like taller ratios. You'll really want at least a G50/50 5th for freeway/touring. Perhaps even a total regear (N/A 1st is especially useless with a turbo, and 2nd would be improved by being taller as well, perhaps the G50-02 3rd/4th ratios for close ratio - oh, wait, this looks like an RS box now)...

There's a laundry list of other things you'll want to address fairly urgently if you double the power output of that 3.2. Stiffen the suspension so the tires don't hit the flares when the rear squats under power. 65/35 LSD (and perhaps a billet side-cover while in there). Upgrade the brakes.

You could build the motor with a plan and just increase boost later - it'd hardly be a slug to drive - and this is trivial to do - changing the wastegate spring is easy enough, but even quicker via the ECU... A 4-port solenoid is good to control lower spring pressures/prevent premature cracking of the valve.

being honest..... I have to absorb this post. i kind of get it but I need to digest and understand it because i am a person who tries to get to fluency. why i love you guys. thank you.

[bickyd]

[QUOTE=mepstein;12104595]https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1114118-299hp-300ftlbs-my-2-7-turbo-setup-wheels.html[/QUOTE
As much as I would like a steroid ufc machine , its beyond my ability at the moment. sincerely though , amazing what you have done. i have to absorb this as well.

[bickyd]

Originally Posted by spuggy

8:1 static C/R doesn't require "low boost", IMO. Factory 3.3 930s came with 0.8 bar and 7:1. With CIS...

I ran 8:1 on mine (with SC cams) for years. Dynamic C/R (all the motor cares about) is altered by cams/timing. The more overlap ("hotter" the cam), the lower the dynamic/effective C/R.

With cams, EFI for good fuel/spark control and good combustion (twin-plugged, COP), 8:1 with 1.2 bar doesn't seem to be "pushing it" to me. I've seen 20 PSI spikes on WOT when fiddling with PID boost control - and detected zero knock.

I agree with Rod 100%; I think the big win of forced aspiration is the relatively massive low-range torque (typically 80% of peak torque around 3000 RPM), flat torque curve and the wide, linear, power band - almost any "decent" (eg designed in the last 30 years) turbo will do that for you. A "modern" turbo could probably do better still (spool faster, flow better etc).

SC cams, although they run out of puff quicker at the top (max by 5500-6000 RPM with torque falling off quickly over 5200 or so), start making power 1000 RPM lower than 964 cams. Almost any half-decent turbo will make positive manifold pressure earlier than the cams really start breathing (my venerable K27/HF made 6 PSI @ 2400 RPM). So they complement each other well.

If shove-in-the-back throttle response from anything over idle interests you, that's one way that works well. Useful more places than just the drag strip - because you don't need to be in the exact correct gear, in a narrow powerband.

Ditch the barn-door AFM in favor of EFI with a MAP/RPM table improves throttle response. 3.4 Nickies come with J&E pistons - lighter than factory. Pauter rods and lightweight clutch equals less rotational mass. It all adds up...

Turbos are great for cruising, but they like taller ratios. You'll really want at least a G50/50 5th for freeway/touring. Perhaps even a total regear (N/A 1st is especially useless with a turbo, and 2nd would be improved by being taller as well, perhaps the G50-02 3rd/4th ratios for close ratio - oh, wait, this looks like an RS box now)...

There's a laundry list of other things you'll want to address fairly urgently if you double the power output of that 3.2. Stiffen the suspension so the tires don't hit the flares when the rear squats under power. 65/35 LSD (and perhaps a billet side-cover while in there). Upgrade the brakes.

You could build the motor with a plan and just increase boost later - it'd hardly be a slug to drive - and this is trivial to do - changing the wastegate spring is easy enough, but even quicker via the ECU... A 4-port solenoid is good to control lower spring pressures/prevent premature cracking of the valve.

understood. thanks.

[asphaltgambler]

My build: 3.4, 10:1 w/ modern design JE pistons, turbo oil pump (extra scavenge stage) 3.8 supercup cams, stock heads / valve size with port cleanup, plastic varioram intake where the disa valve is controlled by stand alone rpm trigger box. Programmable MAF on top of OE DME that was double-speeded and custom chipped by Steve Wong. B&B headers / exhaust. This setup is amazing and should be making @305hp at the crank. It pulls smoothly and very strong all the way to 6900. The cams have almost .500 lift with reasonable duration making for great, broad torque curve and real pull from 4500 to top end.

I wanted a build that would make a really good street motor without having to wring it out to get the power out of it. I've worked on an driven a fair amount of these cars and this combination is fantastic. It's not exotic, but the varioram is the key plus using a modern programmable MAF or speed density system. To go past this power level gets real expensive in a hurry. My .02

This was my build, Michael Mount ( Michael Mount Racing) did the machine work and final assembly

[mepstein]

[QUOTE=bickyd;12104779]

Originally Posted by mepstein

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1114118-299hp-300ftlbs-my-2-7-turbo-setup-wheels.html[/QUOTE
As much as I would like a steroid ufc machine , its beyond my ability at the moment. sincerely though , amazing what you have done. i have to absorb this as well.

This is all Tyler at top tuning. He also works at Canapa, modifying 959's.

[Rodsrsr]

Plus one on the MAF. I use a custom MAF with a split second controller. Yes its old school but it actually does the job fairly well and allows for some on the fly adjustments.

If you decide to go turbo, I would recommend a bolt on .5 bar (7PSI boost) to start, so you can keep your stock 9.3:1 compression. (If its US spec 3.2) I'm betting you'll be happy with this and you can always grow into more. However if you have the euro spec version, I'd probably drop the compression a bit and run more boost. (Yes its a slippery slope).

New Cams, (lots of great suggestions here) replace those lower Divilar head studs with steel, headers with a good muffler (RarelyL8) MAF, (ditching the barn door is a must) For management I use a Protomotive Stage 1 chip with a BEGI rising rate fuel pressure regulator, but there are many other solutions. Decent size intercooler, and you'll need to address scavenge pump. I didn't have much luck with the drain method so I use a Turbowerks electric pump which works flawlessly.

Spooled up in 2nd or 3rd gear, I've put many Teslas to shame with this setup.

One of these days I'll get around to upgrading to a nice stand alone ecu though.