Cost of the Track?

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by steven c

Generally something like this is from an over correction by the driver. You have to remember inertia is very hard to overcome. The momentum of the car is to the right in the video and off the track, so you must play with that momentum with caution. My general theory for going off is that there is little grip in dirt or grass so if there is room just go with it and get back on with less speed in a situation you can deal with. When I lost the right front wheel in a left hand long sweeper all I was saying to myself was don't turn the wheel and ride this out. I though I had blown a tire and didn't know the whole wheel had left the house until I got out of the car. People watching me said the car almost went over, I had no idea because I was focused on one thing. Slow it down and don't make any sudden movements of the steering wheel.

What the Cayman driver did is sometimes called hooking it. With the turn of the wheel trying to get back on the track he had grip on the LF which pulled the car to the left transferring weight to the RF then causing the RF to catch the edge of the tire into the soft dirt accelerating the car to the left.

Bobby Rahal has a good site for driver education that has a lot of good videos at https://safeisfast.com/

I also can recommend Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley and anything else Ross has produced for driver training. He is one of the best. BTW he is the mind behind the Garmin Catalyst which has the logic to help you learn from your driving in real time on the track. I can recommend this device as I have seen it improve drivers.

I have read a lot of the books on driver and car improvement and have an ex-pro driver coach. All he does is critique my bad corners all weekend and it works for me. Not everyone is a fan but it's what I need.

Yep! I've seen it twice myself, same thing both times. Driver went wide at the exit, panicked as the front right hit the grass, and turned the wheel more to try to pull it back. Both times the car was totaled, the second time it totaled another car that was getting ready to pass it, who was also the organizer of the event. He still uses the bumper from his wrecked car as a teaching tool at every open track day!

When you hit the grass you're on ice. Come off the gas most of the way, do not touch the brakes, and smooth your steering inputs. Wherever your car is going keep going that way until it's slow enough to bring it back in a controlled way. It's not fun but it's all you can do.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

That's what happens around here. A friend in the Jaguar club sometimes phones and says the Alfa Romeo club (or some other club) are renting the track for the day and want more drivers to share the cost. These are the best days. A whole lot of European cars all racing around. Small brag going on here. My mighty SC got the fastest lap time in the wet

This type of track day is not aways the best for novice drivers as this type of format does not provide the level of instruction and safety needed. For more experienced drivers, this type of event may be ok.

In any case, this is not HPDE where, generally speaking the goals are to: bring your car home safely, be safe, and have fun while learning some new skills.

[Bill Douglas]

We have the track all day, so plenty of instruction going on too, time to wander around looking at cars, a leisurely lunch, timed laps, everyone is happy. That way they get the numbers up. Not that our track is expensive.

[GH85Carrera]

Every HPDE I have attended required anyone without multiple HPDEs done by the driver, to start in the green group. All beginners, and all with an instructor. Only when the instructor says you can graduate to the next group, can you get out of that group. At the HPDE I did at Roebling Road in GA, that did not think I had the experience yet, so they had an instructor go with me in the first run. As soon as ewe got out, he peeled off the green sticker and put me in the next up group. With my antique analog 85 Carrera I never want to go past the second run group as I would spend most of the day off line pointing to pass all the faster cars. With street tires, and a street car, I have fun, but I am far from fast. And I don;t push past 80 to 90% of comfortable speed.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by steven c

Pmax I have never had any interest in DE's and subscribe to the theory mentioned that there is no guarantees for tomorrow. But I will note that even in a DE you sign a waiver for everyone there that you could do stupid things and you are responsible and everyone else signs the same one. So what's a safe speed, I have no freakin idea? People come to a race in an ill prepared car and there is no safe speed over 20mph, seriously I have seen it. A married couple showed up at Indy one year in 2 cars of the same make and model just different colors and it looked like they belonged at the children's park immediately. And by the 3rd practice session the husband had a bad incident all by himself? They packed up and left and we never saw them again. And they were slooooow, like really slow. We call them rolling road blocks. And you can't trust them to even pass them.

Someone in our Texas club thought I should teach new drivers(bad idea, not mine!) and I would tell them you have an equal or better car than I have. More HP, better brakes, great suspension but you have limited experience. First you should not be here to race, you should go to a Skip Barber school and then do a year of DE's with an instructor and then come back to race. Response, I'm not doing that. Okay, then follow me and I will drive around 6 to7/10's of my normal speed on the tract and you have one job, stay on my bumper(even though I do not have one). They couldn't do it. UNBELIEVABLE! Do not show up with 0 experience and scared!

My point, there is no safe speed on the track. As in most professional racing there is a so called "safe minimum speed" but even that speed, in the hands of a moron, isn't safe. Bottom line, if you go out worried and scared you shouldn't be there but do place enough respect for the track if you do go and prepare responsibly for the sake of all of the participants. Please!

Yes, nothing beats experience.

But correct me if I'm wrong here, I suspect the only way to learn how to "get out of tricky situations" is time on the track with all the risks inherent in it. The schools and instructors can only explain what needs to be done ... when you lose it, do this ... since "experiencing it for real" e.g. what happens when you go off track, aren't part of any of these training programs by design I assume, though the training and instructions probably help if and when such a situation is encountered.

And mistakes are inevitable. Yeah, sorry to be a downer for the OP, probably not for me in my current cars.

[steven c]

Originally Posted by pmax

Yes, nothing beats experience.

But correct me if I'm wrong here, I suspect the only way to learn how to "get out of tricky situations" is time on the track with all the risks inherent in it. The schools and instructors can only explain what needs to be done ... when you lose it, do this ... since "experiencing it for real" e.g. what happens when you go off track, aren't part of any of these training programs by design I assume, though the training and instructions probably help if and when such a situation is encountered.

And mistakes are inevitable. Yeah, sorry to be a downer for the OP, probably not for me in my current cars.

You can learn it on your own over time and hope for the best or a good school(not DE) can teach it in a number of different ways. For example opposite lock or turning into a skid is taught on a skid pad both dry and then wet. You first learn on the dry pad how much speed the car can hold at a certain g force and then by continuing to push the limit you lose control of the car and begin to understand the limits,what that feels like and how to react to it. Then the water comes and the entire exercise becomes opposite lock. The instructor will be all over you with what to do and when and you will keep practicing until you get it right or after a while accept your own limits. This is the best, most effective way to teach driving on the edge. After this you typically go to the track and practice the same limits there with the instructor giving you tons of feedback and if you can handle it pushing you to the edge over and over.

Believe it or not, most complete novices can't even push the brake pedal hard enough to lock up the wheels. A school will usually start with braking. Most race cars do not have anti-lock brakes so some schools will have cars with and without ABS so you can learn in what you race. You would be surprised how many passes it takes for complete beginners to learn the limits of the cars brakes. And they don't even get into off-roading your race car in these novice classes, which is what you're asking about.

I started reading about road racing in high school while I was drag racing my 454. Once in college I had an MGB and was auto crossing and reading books about how to road race. To be good at this it takes dedication, repetition, some good hand eye coordination and a lot of money! A more leisurely way to enjoy the track is in a DE in a class of your piers. The guys in my immediate group of racers are pretty intense at this.

[pmax]

^^^ Yes, those are the kinda driving schools I would sign up for.

And I do hear you on the DEs. Thanks for the insights.

[Fleetwood]

Only 10-15 big track days over the past 40 yrs but many Drivers Skills days by our Pacific Northwest PCA Club. These are autocross type skills events around cones including a big figure 8 (my fav), accident avoidance, slalom cones, skidpad, etc. All with an instructor if you're new or choose to.

I can't say enough about how well the club runs DE, Skills, and autocross events. Safety is a primary concern, instructors/coaches when you want one, and genuinely helpful, individualized training. And to quote one of the instructors at the Skills Event "this is where you can drive like a hooligan" as long as you stay on the pavement. One coach emailed me ahead of a DE to understand my goals, experience etc.

My last DE at Utah Motorsports Park had my brilliant instructor downgrade me to the beginner run group (much smaller than intermediates) as my SC is slow compared to all the GT cars driven by the new intermediates. All I would have done is watched my rear-view mirror for 15-20 hot rods blow by me. As it was 4+ miles and 20 turns had me wondering exactly what turn I was apexing. This was an absolutely killer day with 6 sessions of 20 minutes each and the last two probably longer. So much fun that my coach made me do the last session solo, which was a little unnerving, but great for the confidence. Bottom line is if this is available in your area do it as its the perfect introduction and training.

For the cost part, the original question, my experience is all over the board. Sometimes new rear tires are needed, an alignment, maybe a valve adjust is due. I once had to replace the windshield because of a ding so the prep cost can get up there if you want everything to be its best. Sometimes, not often, the track pre-inspection comes up clean or only a brake fluid change is needed. One of the reasons I like the Drivers Skills days so much are no outside track inspections required with owners and at-track inspections sufficient.

In my experience, its pretty rare to see cars damaged or broken at a track day. There are some off road experiences and dirty, dusty cars but damage is unusual. That said, I have witnessed a couple turbos overpower their drivers.

Another point is you don't have to drive 10-10ths. There's all kinds of fun learning the line, practicing shifting and braking, etc in a 60-80% range and if you really want to learn the adhesion limits of your car, try an autocross (or Skills if available), and find that limit with a few spins

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by steven c

You can learn it on your own over time and hope for the best or a good school(not DE) can teach it in a number of different ways. For example opposite lock or turning into a skid is taught on a skid pad both dry and then wet. You first learn on the dry pad how much speed the car can hold at a certain g force and then by continuing to push the limit you lose control of the car and begin to understand the limits,what that feels like and how to react to it. Then the water comes and the entire exercise becomes opposite lock. The instructor will be all over you with what to do and when and you will keep practicing until you get it right or after a while accept your own limits. This is the best, most effective way to teach driving on the edge. After this you typically go to the track and practice the same limits there with the instructor giving you tons of feedback and if you can handle it pushing you to the edge over and over.

Believe it or not, most complete novices can't even push the brake pedal hard enough to lock up the wheels. A school will usually start with braking. Most race cars do not have anti-lock brakes so some schools will have cars with and without ABS so you can learn in what you race. You would be surprised how many passes it takes for complete beginners to learn the limits of the cars brakes. And they don't even get into off-roading your race car in these novice classes, which is what you're asking about.

I started reading about road racing in high school while I was drag racing my 454. Once in college I had an MGB and was auto crossing and reading books about how to road race. To be good at this it takes dedication, repetition, some good hand eye coordination and a lot of money! A more leisurely way to enjoy the track is in a DE in a class of your piers. The guys in my immediate group of racers are pretty intense at this.

Good points.

However, bear in mind that while Driver Skills Training, Autocross, HPDE, and Racing share a common skill set, they have different end goals. I believe we all need to experience these steps.

I instruct st Street Survival school (www.streetsurvival.org) and you correct that getting inexperienced drivers to use the full brake pedal (ABS kicking in or locking up) is challenging. Same for skid pad (over/under steer).

For someone wanting to get on the track, I strongly recommend that they start with Autocross. It is solace where you will learn about your cars under/over steer behaviors, how weight transfer works and braking dynamics. The good part about AX is that you will experience these things at low speeds where the outcome will be a few crushed cones. The risk to your car is minimized due to course design and the speed involved. These skills learned, will serve you well on the street and track.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Fleetwood

Only 10-15 big track days over the past 40 yrs but many Drivers Skills days by our Pacific Northwest PCA Club. These are autocross type skills events around cones including a big figure 8 (my fav), accident avoidance, slalom cones, skidpad, etc. All with an instructor if you're new or choose to.

I can't say enough about how well the club runs DE, Skills, and autocross events. Safety is a primary concern, instructors/coaches when you want one, and genuinely helpful, individualized training. And to quote one of the instructors at the Skills Event "this is where you can drive like a hooligan" as long as you stay on the pavement. One coach emailed me ahead of a DE to understand my goals, experience etc.

My last DE at Utah Motorsports Park had my brilliant instructor downgrade me to the beginner run group (much smaller than intermediates) as my SC is slow compared to all the GT cars driven by the new intermediates. All I would have done is watched my rear-view mirror for 15-20 hot rods blow by me. As it was 4+ miles and 20 turns had me wondering exactly what turn I was apexing. This was an absolutely killer day with 6 sessions of 20 minutes each and the last two probably longer. So much fun that my coach made me do the last session solo, which was a little unnerving, but great for the confidence. Bottom line is if this is available in your area do it as its the perfect introduction and training.

For the cost part, the original question, my experience is all over the board. Sometimes new rear tires are needed, an alignment, maybe a valve adjust is due. I once had to replace the windshield because of a ding so the prep cost can get up there if you want everything to be its best. Sometimes, not often, the track pre-inspection comes up clean or only a brake fluid change is needed. One of the reasons I like the Drivers Skills days so much are no outside track inspections required with owners and at-track inspections sufficient.

In my experience, its pretty rare to see cars damaged or broken at a track day. There are some off road experiences and dirty, dusty cars but damage is unusual. That said, I have witnessed a couple turbos overpower their drivers.

Another point is you don't have to drive 10-10ths. There's all kinds of fun learning the line, practicing shifting and braking, etc in Virginia that if the inter group is smaller, a 60-80% range and if you really want to learn the adhesion limits of your car, try an autocross (or Skills if available), and find that limit with a few spins

Exactly my experience. I have been signed off by the clubs I drive with. I like driving in the novice group for the same reason but tell them I would prefer to join the intermediate group if it is smaller. Instruction is always a plus.

Also, as you note HPDE is not about driving 10/10 this but learning skills within your performance envelope.