Cost of the Track?

[GH85Carrera]

As we all know unsprung weight is bad. A HPDE will help remove some of the excess rubber from the tires, and brake pads. Both good things!

[AFB24911S]

Love all the advice, I'm going for it this summer.

For me, since I'm moving to D.C. for a post grad school job, that will involve finding a place to live where I can keep my tools and the car and snow tires, but worth it. Looks like there are some great tracks out there.

[steven c]

I started with auto X in college and should have stopped there. Now a weekend vintage racing my 69 vette can turn into 5 figures....... COVID caused a 35 to 50% jump in costs. Be very careful to avoid the red mist and keep this under control as it can spiral easily

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

I don't take track days too seriously. I'm not out to win. I just drive faster than I would on the street knowing there is no curb, no one coming the other way and no police man to lock me up for the night.

I sometimes go when my tires are getting close to needing replacing and I practice throttle steering around the corners, sliding into the corners and fast out. Basically just having a good time.

Costs me very little as I drive there and back again at the end of the day. The Porsche loves me for it as it's had a day of under load and lots of revs to burn the carbon off.

So, my advice is just have a good time and stay well within your comfortable limits.

Even without the curb or traffic, isn't going off track at high speeds also "something to worry about" while having a blast sliding around ?

I watch videos of such incidents, fun to watch, and it always strikes me just how much kinetic energy there is which needs to be dissipated when traction goes away. In one case, the poor sob misses a corner, slides, hits the tire wall a mile away or so it seems.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by pmax

Even without the curb or traffic, isn't going off track at high speeds also "something to worry about" while having a blast sliding around ?

Nothing for me to worry about. I've been sliding cars and motorbikes around since I was 13. I love it. And less chance of me going off the track than the next person. Plus there is good run off so if I did come to grief wouldn't matter.

My advanced driving skills have saved my bacon more than once. One incident that springs to mind is driving home with a full set of brand new tires and deciding to pass a slow moving bus in some S bends

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Originally Posted by pmax

Even without the curb or traffic, isn't going off track at high speeds also "something to worry about" while having a blast sliding around ?

I watch videos of such incidents, fun to watch, and it always strikes me just how much kinetic energy there is which needs to be dissipated when traction goes away. In one case, the poor sob misses a corner, slides, hits the tire wall a mile away or so it seems.

A bump in the air from leaving the track and having a wheel dig in immediately and flip your car into a roll with NO sliding is a reality. You roll bar is for this purpose and it should be designed and installed properly.

A modern Porsche getting up around 40 degrees from horizontal will trigger ALL the air bags, seen that up close, guy went and bought a track car.

[shoooo32]

Originally Posted by steven c

I started with auto X in college and should have stopped there. Now a weekend vintage racing my 69 vette can turn into 5 figures....... COVID caused a 35 to 50% jump in costs. Be very careful to avoid the red mist and keep this under control as it can spiral easily

I support vintage cars in SVRA, HSR, etc. It's insane how much money it costs to go racing at that level. Event fees with a test day are touching $2k and a garage rental at places like COTA are $2500. You're over $4k and you haven't left the house, prepped the car, bought tires, fuel, brakes, paid the crew, hotels, meals, etc.

You can have 80% of the fun of wheel to wheel at a track day for 10% of the cost of a top tier vintage weekend.

[steven c]

Originally Posted by shoooo32

I support vintage cars in SVRA, HSR, etc. It's insane how much money it costs to go racing at that level. Event fees with a test day are touching $2k and a garage rental at places like COTA are $2500. You're over $4k and you haven't left the house, prepped the car, bought tires, fuel, brakes, paid the crew, hotels, meals, etc.

You can have 80% of the fun of wheel to wheel at a track day for 10% of the cost of a top tier vintage weekend.

A friend with plenty of money can't understand how much I spend vintage racing. And how often the old cars are breaking.... He's been trying to get me to buy a spec Boxster and run track days with him. I hear him, but I think I will miss the wheel to wheel competition. And things like just missing big pile ups, punting a friend, almost driving into into a berm with a stuck brake caliper coming down from 100+ mph, losing a front wheel at 90 mph.... I've been vintage racing for 25 years so I've seen a lot of fun? With 600 hp in 60's technology it's dicey at times. This replaced my motorcycle days so I enjoy all of this.

But the common deal that ends this for vintage racers is the big off and a trip to the hospital, be it 4 hours or 10 days. We never see them again. I'm trying to avoid this!

[pmax]

So, here's a seemingly minor offtrack excursion, albeit at high speeds, which leads to hitting the wall on the other side of the track.



Not understanding the dynamics of this but I would guess his fate was sealed once the car hits grass.

[mikesarge]

that sort of thing ^^ is pretty avoidable if you just take it easy. You CAN use the whole track, but you don't have to be running the curbs and messing up your tires and all that to enjoy a track day.

I think Bill Douglas already said it but you can't win an HPDE, so just drive within your limits and push gently. Drive with an instructor, come up with goals for the day, and just have fun! once you're not having fun, or getting sloppy/tired/frustrated, it's time to go home

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by pmax

So, here's a seemingly minor offtrack excursion, albeit at high speeds, which leads to hitting the wall on the other side of the track.



Not understanding the dynamics of this but I would guess his fate was sealed once the car hits grass.

I would like the know the rest of the story. Interestingly I noted no brake lights until he was almost at the wall which possibly indicates he was trying to save the car.

I have been told you really should never try to save the car to continue, the mission is to bring it to a stop away from anything hard. Not sure if this was possible in this case

[steven c]

Generally something like this is from an over correction by the driver. You have to remember inertia is very hard to overcome. The momentum of the car is to the right in the video and off the track, so you must play with that momentum with caution. My general theory for going off is that there is little grip in dirt or grass so if there is room just go with it and get back on with less speed in a situation you can deal with. When I lost the right front wheel in a left hand long sweeper all I was saying to myself was don't turn the wheel and ride this out. I though I had blown a tire and didn't know the whole wheel had left the house until I got out of the car. People watching me said the car almost went over, I had no idea because I was focused on one thing. Slow it down and don't make any sudden movements of the steering wheel.

What the Cayman driver did is sometimes called hooking it. With the turn of the wheel trying to get back on the track he had grip on the LF which pulled the car to the left transferring weight to the RF then causing the RF to catch the edge of the tire into the soft dirt accelerating the car to the left.

Bobby Rahal has a good site for driver education that has a lot of good videos at https://safeisfast.com/

I also can recommend Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley and anything else Ross has produced for driver training. He is one of the best. BTW he is the mind behind the Garmin Catalyst which has the logic to help you learn from your driving in real time on the track. I can recommend this device as I have seen it improve drivers.

I have read a lot of the books on driver and car improvement and have an ex-pro driver coach. All he does is critique my bad corners all weekend and it works for me. Not everyone is a fan but it's what I need.

[shoooo32]

As this is a predominantly aircooled group, we'd likely be able to avoid that situation. Half the horsepower and a quarter less weight of a GT3 reduces inertia as Steve pointed out above.

GT3s are amazing until they touch grass. Then you're a passenger. I prefer slow car fast.

[steven c]

Always more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow..as Tony said. I agree!

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by steven c

Always more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow..as Tony said. I agree!

As a guy who tracks a 140 hp, 2500 lb car, totally agree about the fun.

But when you go off the priority is to lose energy ASAP. That is braking and disengaging the clutch i.e. both feet in. Also looking where you want to go, not the wall!

[pmax]

I get the difference in performance so average speeds won't be as high but still ... 100 mph amounts to the same energy relative to mass whether in a 150/2500 or 500hp/3200lb car.

So, go tracking but stick with "safe" speeds ? That incident above is at around 100mph or just below.

[Jack Olsen]

I recently worked out that I had 27,000 on-track miles in my 911. I still haven't ever bought a set of slicks. Street tires are fine.

As everyone else is mentioning, all you need is your car in good working order. The only big expenses are if things go wrong. A money shift costs more than expensive tires.

[Cajundaddy]

Lots of experience, driving talent, and good advice in this thread.

My 2 cents: Tomorrow is promised to no one. Get your car sorted with high temp brake fluid, high temp brake pads, decent 200 TW street tires, and have it thoroughly safety inspected to avoid a negative outcome.

Then find an active club in your area that regularly organizes HPDE events and go with the mindset of skill development, building speed through solid fundamentals like any other sport. With a good instructor in the right seat and gradually working up your personal skill set, you will have a great time and be doing it safely.

Cheers!

[steven c]

Originally Posted by shoooo32

I support vintage cars in SVRA, HSR, etc. It's insane how much money it costs to go racing at that level. Event fees with a test day are touching $2k and a garage rental at places like COTA are $2500. You're over $4k and you haven't left the house, prepped the car, bought tires, fuel, brakes, paid the crew, hotels, meals, etc.

You can have 80% of the fun of wheel to wheel at a track day for 10% of the cost of a top tier vintage weekend.

Originally Posted by pmax

I get the difference in performance so average speeds won't be as high but still ... 100 mph amounts to the same energy relative to mass whether in a 150/2500 or 500hp/3200lb car.

So, go tracking but stick with "safe" speeds ? That incident above is at around 100mph or just below.

Pmax I have never had any interest in DE's and subscribe to the theory mentioned that there is no guarantees for tomorrow. But I will note that even in a DE you sign a waiver for everyone there that you could do stupid things and you are responsible and everyone else signs the same one. So what's a safe speed, I have no freakin idea? People come to a race in an ill prepared car and there is no safe speed over 20mph, seriously I have seen it. A married couple showed up at Indy one year in 2 cars of the same make and model just different colors and it looked like they belonged at the children's park immediately. And by the 3rd practice session the husband had a bad incident all by himself? They packed up and left and we never saw them again. And they were slooooow, like really slow. We call them rolling road blocks. And you can't trust them to even pass them.

Someone in our Texas club thought I should teach new drivers(bad idea, not mine!) and I would tell them you have an equal or better car than I have. More HP, better brakes, great suspension but you have limited experience. First you should not be here to race, you should go to a Skip Barber school and then do a year of DE's with an instructor and then come back to race. Response, I'm not doing that. Okay, then follow me and I will drive around 6 to7/10's of my normal speed on the tract and you have one job, stay on my bumper(even though I do not have one). They couldn't do it. UNBELIEVABLE! Do not show up with 0 experience and scared!

My point, there is no safe speed on the track. As in most professional racing there is a so called "safe minimum speed" but even that speed, in the hands of a moron, isn't safe. Bottom line, if you go out worried and scared you shouldn't be there but do place enough respect for the track if you do go and prepare responsibly for the sake of all of the participants. Please!

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

Then find an active club in your area that regularly organizes

That's what happens around here. A friend in the Jaguar club sometimes phones and says the Alfa Romeo club (or some other club) are renting the track for the day and want more drivers to share the cost. These are the best days. A whole lot of European cars all racing around. Small brag going on here. My mighty SC got the fastest lap time in the wet