911 rear end slide out. what speed ??

[Bill Douglas]

I'm 66 and I still do that intentionally. I sure hope I'll be more sensible when I grow up.

[MrScratch]

Originally Posted by RSBob

Agree with directly above.

If you want to see how the car will spin, when its raining, go 15-20 MPH into a right hand turn and midway though the turn, hit the gas and see how fast the rear end comes around. Ask me how I know. You will gain immediate respect as to how fast it can happen. Now go out to a skid pad with instructors and learn your car’s limits.

It's February. Here in Vancouver that's not a great time to drive around in a convertible.
I will once the weather gets better.
I can take roundabouts at 40mph in my jeep TJ
so this doesnt really fill me with confidence about the ability of my Carrera lol

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by MrScratch

It's February. Here in Vancouver that's not a great time to drive around in a convertible.
I will once the weather gets better.
I can take roundabouts at 40mph in my jeep TJ
so this doesnt really fill me with confidence about the ability of my Carrera lol

He means get into as tight a circle as you can at 20mph until the car starts sliding, then punch the gas.

You need to learn the actual limits of the cars you're driving. Your TJ cannot handle what your Carrera can handle.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by MrScratch

It's February. Here in Vancouver that's not a great time to drive around in a convertible.
I will once the weather gets better.
I can take roundabouts at 40mph in my jeep TJ
so this doesnt really fill me with confidence about the ability of my Carrera lol

Dress warm.

Going around traffic circles is not the ticket. You need an open area where when you spin, there is NOTHING to hit.

Are you in BC or Washington?

The BC Chapter of PCA offers a series of HPDE Events that will teach you driving skills.

The PNWR (Seattle) of PCA has both HPDE and Autocross.

The Oregon PCA offers Autocross as well.

These are the places to learn your skills.

[MrScratch]

Originally Posted by David Inc.

He means get into as tight a circle as you can at 20mph until the car starts sliding, then punch the gas.

You need to learn the actual limits of the cars you're driving. Your TJ cannot handle what your Carrera can handle.

lol
i hope not
I will for sure get training on it.

[masraum]

I just breezed through this thread. What a collection of responses! Many/most of them are from seasoned track guys and seem spot on.

In your 911 you can go through a corner at 20 or 120 with no drama at all. You can also understeer through a corner at 20 or 120. You can also over steer through a corner at 20 or 120. It's all up to the nut behind the wheel (that's all of us, not intended for anyone specific, just a bit of levity).

If you hit the wrong kind of bump in the middle of a turn, that might be bad (but not definitely). If you hit the gas in the middle of a turn, that might be bad (but not definitely). If you abruptly let off of the gas in the middle of a corner, that might be bad (but not definitely). If you hit the brakes in the middle of a corner, that is even more likely to be bad than letting off of the gas (but not definitely, OK, there's a high chance for it to be bad).

I think that's why someone (David?) said something about .8gs in a corner. If you're below .8gs, you're probably fine to steer and/or add/remove throttle with a good set of tires on a decent road at decent temperatures. Once you get up at or above that, then you are probably getting into territory where things can easily happen if you're too abrupt or do something that you shouldn't mid corner.

Temperature of the road and tires (cold) makes a difference.
Some roads are more grippy and some are very slick even under ideal circumstances. (I've driven on roads where I could hammer the gas in 2nd and get wheel spin out of my old 911 and even more so in my boxster because the roads were unusually slick.)

Reading is a good idea. The Vic Elford book is good, and there are several others. Some folks do well reading books.

Taking your car to an AutoX or DE event is also great. (probably the best way to learn what your car can do and how to get it to do it)

What I advise is initially drive your car like you would another car, and then gradually test your limits (it's more about you than the car).

Take some corner that you're very familiar with, that doesn't have curbs, trees, poles, traffic, buildings, etc... gradually faster trying to be smooth and concentrate on what your butt is feeling. If you can find a parking lot even better, but sometimes those can be hard to come by.
Once you're comfortable use that same corner or find another corner try giving more gas, or letting off (initially just a tiny bit) of the gas mid corner to feel what the car will do. If you're doing that sort of "testing" escalate very gradually. You want to feel the car change it's behavior a little. You don't want to spin the car or understeer off into the grass.

You'll probably find that in a 911 if you try to give the car more gas while you're already in the corner, the car will have a tendency to want to understeer, not oversteer. To get it to oversteer, you'd likely have to abruptly hammer the throttle and even then it still may understeer.

If you're near the limit and you let off of the gas even just a tiny bit you should feel the rear end start to wander.

Whatever you do, be careful and avoid situations where you're going to hurt others, yourself, and your car (probably in that order).


Other good reads in addition to the Vic Elford book that I've read
Henry Watts - Secrets of Solo Racing
Paul Frere - Sports Car and Competition Driving
Bob Bondurant - Bob Bondurant on High Performance Driving

I've heard these recommended, but haven't read them myself
Carl Lopez - Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving (connected with the Skip Barber racing school)
Ross Bentley - Speed Secrets: Professional Race Driving Techniques

This is for motorcycles, but I've heard it recommended many times even for folks driving cars.
Keith Code - Twist of the Wrist: The Motorcycle Roadracers Handbook

[MrScratch]

Originally Posted by masraum

I just breezed through this thread. What a collection of responses! Many/most of them are from seasoned track guys and seem spot on.

In your 911 you can go through a corner at 20 or 120 with no drama at all. You can also understeer through a corner at 20 or 120. You can also over steer through a corner at 20 or 120. It's all up to the nut behind the wheel (that's all of us, not intended for anyone specific, just a bit of levity).

If you hit the wrong kind of bump in the middle of a turn, that might be bad (but not definitely). If you hit the gas in the middle of a turn, that might be bad (but not definitely). If you abruptly let off of the gas in the middle of a corner, that might be bad (but not definitely). If you hit the brakes in the middle of a corner, that is even more likely to be bad than letting off of the gas (but not definitely, OK, there's a high chance for it to be bad).

I think that's why someone (David?) said something about .8gs in a corner. If you're below .8gs, you're probably fine to steer and/or add/remove throttle with a good set of tires on a decent road at decent temperatures. Once you get up at or above that, then you are probably getting into territory where things can easily happen if you're too abrupt or do something that you shouldn't mid corner.

Temperature of the road and tires (cold) makes a difference.
Some roads are more grippy and some are very slick even under ideal circumstances. (I've driven on roads where I could hammer the gas in 2nd and get wheel spin out of my old 911 and even more so in my boxster because the roads were unusually slick.)

Reading is a good idea. The Vic Elford book is good, and there are several others. Some folks do well reading books.

Taking your car to an AutoX or DE event is also great. (probably the best way to learn what your car can do and how to get it to do it)

What I advise is initially drive your car like you would another car, and then gradually test your limits (it's more about you than the car).

Take some corner that you're very familiar with, that doesn't have curbs, trees, poles, traffic, buildings, etc... gradually faster trying to be smooth and concentrate on what your butt is feeling. If you can find a parking lot even better, but sometimes those can be hard to come by.
Once you're comfortable use that same corner or find another corner try giving more gas, or letting off (initially just a tiny bit) of the gas mid corner to feel what the car will do. If you're doing that sort of "testing" escalate very gradually. You want to feel the car change it's behavior a little. You don't want to spin the car or understeer off into the grass.

You'll probably find that in a 911 if you try to give the car more gas while you're already in the corner, the car will have a tendency to want to understeer, not oversteer. To get it to oversteer, you'd likely have to abruptly hammer the throttle and even then it still may understeer.

If you're near the limit and you let off of the gas even just a tiny bit you should feel the rear end start to wander.

Whatever you do, be careful and avoid situations where you're going to hurt others, yourself, and your car (probably in that order).


Other good reads in addition to the Vic Elford book that I've read
Henry Watts - Secrets of Solo Racing
Paul Frere - Sports Car and Competition Driving
Bob Bondurant - Bob Bondurant on High Performance Driving

I've heard these recommended, but haven't read them myself
Carl Lopez - Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving (connected with the Skip Barber racing school)
Ross Bentley - Speed Secrets: Professional Race Driving Techniques

This is for motorcycles, but I've heard it recommended many times even for folks driving cars.
Keith Code - Twist of the Wrist: The Motorcycle Roadracers Handbook

thanks great advice in here.
i'll do the courses. there are a couple already listed but i need to install a cage.
i'll be doing this in April or May.
there's some great lots to rip around on but unfortunately they are covered in snow right now as they belong to local ski hills.
most have speed bumps and light poles around
i ride bikes and understand trail breaking etc.
i can whip my other cars around pretty good.
i just don't want to damage my car or my wife lol

[Alan L]

You should not need a roll cage to learn your car. I don't know what the options are in the US, but you are not racing. Learning. The key point I take from masraums post is approach the limits gradually. Could not agree more. At the point you overstep the limit, it is not a catastrophe and is salvageable. Easily and with minimal inputs. The further you overstep the mark, the worse things get. Being able to react decisively is a big part of the equation. It should be instinctive.
If you have to try and recall which chapter you read on which topic, when the car is out of shape , you got problems.
Find the right track time and practise and learn. Your confidence in the car will increase enormously. That doesn't mean you will become a racer - but you will relax and enjoy the car much more, and more safely.
Good luck. it is worth the effort.
Alan

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by MrScratch

thanks great advice in here.
i'll do the courses. there are a couple already listed but i need to install a cage.
i'll be doing this in April or May.
there's some great lots to rip around on but unfortunately they are covered in snow right now as they belong to local ski hills.
most have speed bumps and light poles around
i ride bikes and understand trail breaking etc.
i can whip my other cars around pretty good.
i just don't want to damage my car or my wife lol

For Autocross no cage is required. You would need rollover protection for your Czb to participate in HPDE.

While you have street experiences, track time (Autocross HPDE) is different. Given your situation, sign up for an Autocross or two to get a feel for car control.

[MrScratch]

Originally Posted by HarryD

For Autocross no cage is required. You would need rollover protection for your Czb to participate in HPDE.

While you have street experiences, track time (Autocross HPDE) is different. Given your situation, sign up for an Autocross or two to get a feel for car control.

thanks will do.
i'll see what my local PCA ( PNW) has to offer
they are doing a few HPDE coming up in spring.
i'm going to put the roll bar in anyway. i like the look!!

[Johner]

If you are in Vancouver BC, take a look at the HPDEs at VIMC (Vancouver Island Motorsport Circuit). The inspection sheet says that roll bars in convertibles are recommended not required for HPDE. I've done a couple of HPDE sessions there and found the instruction to be excellent. The local PCA and other motorsports clubs in the region may offer track days there at reduced rates.

[MrScratch]

Originally Posted by Johner

If you are in Vancouver BC, take a look at the HPDEs at VIMC (Vancouver Island Motorsport Circuit). The inspection sheet says that roll bars in convertibles are recommended not required for HPDE. I've done a couple of HPDE sessions there and found the instruction to be excellent. The local PCA and other motorsports clubs in the region may offer track days there at reduced rates.

thanks
I'll look them up

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by MrScratch

thanks will do.
i'll see what my local PCA ( PNW) has to offer
they are doing a few HPDE coming up in spring.
i'm going to put the roll bar in anyway. i like the look!!

PCA/PNWR offers both Autocross and HPDE. They are excellent programs. I have done several HPDE's with them and highly recommend them. I would do Autocross with them, but they are too far from me and, for me anyway, the juice is not worth the squeeze.

These are their upcoming Autocross Days:
https://www.motorsportreg.com/events/2025-pnwr-autocross-practice-bremerton-motorsports-park-pca-pacific-northwest-244719

https://www.motorsportreg.com/events/2025-pnwr-autocross-event-1-bremerton-motorsports-park-pca-pacific-northwest-758256

They also offer driver skills training days. If you can, attend one. this is the link to the next one: https://www.motorsportreg.com/events/pca-pnwr-driver-skills-may-3-2025-bremerton-motorsports-park-pacific-northwest-211441

Hooked on Driving is a HPDE Club that also offers excellent opportunities at various tracks in the Pacific NW.

[911 Rod]

You DON'T want a roll bar, or worse yet a cage, for a street car unless you drive around with a helmet on. In an accident your melon will bang off the bar.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

That .80g was with tires from the 1980s. The tires from this era are far superior in almost every respect. When using a track app like Track Addict, I see 1.0 on tight corners. Not real scientific, but I know my car on modern Summer tires handles way better than the old M/S tires of the 1980s or 90s.

Originally Posted by David Inc.

Yeah I don't think people realize just how much better modern tires are. Even tires from the modern era--I think someone recently took 15-20 seconds off the Carrera GT's 'Ring time just with 2024 tires vs. those available at the car's launch.

On Ventus RS4 even my little SC will bounce between 1 - 1.2g as it shimmies through a corner.
...

80s Carrera






Hmmm, I think it is safe to say that the latest 911s outhandles our 40+ year old cars outfitted with modern tires.

Why are the skidpad numbers for the former so low when the latter can already do 1-1.2g ?

I'm missing something.

[Kevin Stewart]

I had my sc cross up on me going around a sweeping corner, 30mph corner doing 65-70 with a river on one side. with some experience in race cars the tail tried to wag if I would have lifted or hit the brakes I would have been in the river, the only option was go to the floor. I will say it came out the other side like a champ. I was amazed how it pulled itself out of trouble.

[917_Langheck]

Originally Posted by pmax

80s Carrera

Hmmm, I think it is safe to say that the latest 911s outhandles our 40+ year old cars outfitted with modern tires.

Why are the skidpad numbers for the former so low when the latter can already do 1-1.2g ?

I'm missing something.

Yes, put both cars on same wheel widths with the same rubber, then see what the numbers are.

That said, having corner marshalled numerous autox events, the boxster generally out performs most production cars in the corner, in that format.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by 917_Langheck

Yes, put both cars on same wheel widths with the same rubber, then see what the numbers are.

A head to head test would be very interesting.

Maybe the improvement in the 911's performance as measured by lap times over the past 40 years is largely due to the increased power and better braking not the cornering abilities ... who knows.

Originally Posted by 917_Langheck

...
That said, having corner marshalled numerous autox events, the boxster generally out performs most production cars in the corner, in that format.

Well, for what it's worth, the skidpad numbers are lower.

2023 Boxster


2000 Boxster